FIA to reduce a cars turbo as a penalty in '14?

Skeeter said:
Are you trying to say that if a driver gets even slightly alongside, under whatever circumstance, the driver ahead is no longer allowed to take the racing line?
Click to expand...

What I am saying is that if a driver is ahead but overlapping, he does not have the right to be on the racing line, if while doing so it crowds the other car off the track.
If for example this racing line goes diagonally across a straight (like start-finish in China), the driver can not continue over on the racing line while the other car is outside.

mZew652.jpg

Hopefully this image is understandable. A shows an illegal move, B the legal option. It just happens that in the cases in Bahrain, it was through corners, rather than straights, but the racing line moving across the track is the same, and the crowding was there.
 
Picture A is not an illegal move.

For it to be an illegal move the driver in the car ahead would have had to either leave the racing line to defend and then move back onto it, or shown an abnormal line at that point of the lap compared to previous race laps. The rules do not say that a driver must give up the racing line if a car gets alongside, it says that a driver cannot return to the racing line (if there is someone there) after they have previously left it to defend a position.

The issue is the FIA's implementation of the rules. They were brought in to stop people doing what Rosberg did in Bahrain last year, which was a clear cause of someone moving across the track to push another driver off. However, people have been penalised under this rule (in my view) unfairly in cases where the racing line moves from one side of the track to another. Perez in China is a good example. He was just taking the racing line, it was Kimi who made the abnormal move to attack.

Obviously there is a factor of self preservation. No driver is going to take the racing line if they know they will crash. But as always it is up to the guy behind to make the pass. They do not just need to get a couple of inches alongside the rear wheel and expect the driver in front to forfeit the racing line. And that is not what the rules state. The rules are all around people making moves off line to defend positions and what they are allowed to do during or after those moves. The rules are around making defensive moves, not simply being a defending driver.
 
Skeeter said:
For it to be an illegal move the driver in the car ahead would have had to either leave the racing line to defend and then move back onto it,
Click to expand...

When referencing rule 20.3 only.

20.4 as I quoted prohibits the motion of the car ahead in picture A, as it says the driver ahead has use of the full width of the track UNLESS there is a car overlapping. 20.5 prohibits the same motion as it can be considered as crowding the other car off the track.
These rules have nothing to do with the racing line like 20.3 does.
 
20.4 is all about 'during the first move'. Taking the racing line without making a move doesn't count as a move to defend, therefore 20.4 doesn't apply

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.
Click to expand...

And 20.5 (as I read it) considers crowding a driver as one example of an all encompasing description of 'abnormal changes of direction', and again simply taking the racing line is not an abnormal change of direction.

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
Click to expand...

As soon as the driver starts to move about to defend his position rules 20.4 and 20.5 come into effect. If the driver is simply taking the racing line, the same line he has taken every normal lap before, then they do not apply.

The only possible way it could be made an illegal move is if you were to consider taking the racing line while someone is behind you as a 'manoeuvre liable to hinder another driver', but that would mean any car in front of another car would breach this rule, meaning 21 cars would be referred to the stewards at the end of the first lap! :p
 
Last edited:
Skeeter said:
And 20.5 (as I read it) considers crowding a driver as one example of an all encompasing description of 'abnormal changes of direction', and again simply taking the racing line is not an abnormal change of direction.
Click to expand...

This is obviously a difference of understanding then, because I read it as "crowding a driver" and "abnormal changes of direction" as being two separate examples of manoeuvres liables to hinder other drivers.

Looking at Button/Perez, the drivers were about level going into and around the corner. It was only at the exit, that the car on the inside drove straight towards the edge.


Looking at the Perez/Alonso move, Perez was actually behind Alonso before the corner, and as soon as Perez is ahead he drives directly towards the edge of the track. Note Alonso gave Perez room going in to the corner, but Perez did not reciprocate coming out.

0:40-0:50

By the way, I am not advocating that everything be punished with an iron fist, but once a driver is allowed to do moves like these (on a possibly safer track due to run-offs), the same drivers may do it again reversed but at a much more dangerous corner.
 
The drivers on the outside wouldn't have kept their foot in if there was a wall there. The only reason those drivers ended up off the track is because they put themselves there, because the track allows it.

I think there are far to many penalties handed out for overtakes. F1 needs less result changing decisions being made in the stewards room.
 
If the current state of penalties is anything to go by, they won't reduce the turbo boost as they'll investigate everything after the race.

A suggestion then, reduce the turbo on the team trucks - if the cars turn up late, then there'll be less need for steward investigations. ;)
 
Even MORE possible penalties coming...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/05/09/penalty-points-system-drivers-moves-step-closer/

Really not keen on this. People could get penalised after being penalised.

Grosjean for example would have got a race ban for causing a dangerous collision in Spa, but also got 8 points for that too, meaning that the few 2 points he would have already accrued for his other first lap things would have meant that the full penalty for his misjudgement at Spa would have been 2 race bans.

Are the FIA just trying to scare F1 drivers from getting anywhere near each other?
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't mind seeing something like that brought in, at least then there would be no guessing with which way the stewards will decide on any given weekend, may finally get some consistency.

That said, I'm sure drivers and teams could look to exploit the system, what would stop teams from purposely breaking rules and getting points at the last race if they are nowhere near 12.

May get to see some different drivers in the cars if people start getting race bans though... Williams may need to get a decent 3rd driver if they keep hold of Maldonado :p

Edit: I may have misunderstood, surely Grosjean would have got only 3 points for causing a dangerous collision?
 
Last edited:
No, the points are on top of the existing penalties. So he would have got a race ban for causing a dangerous collision, but then causing a collision would have got him 3 points and the race ban 5 points.

Its penalties for getting penalties. Its retarded.

At the bottom of the article:

Existing penalties will remain in place so a driver who was given a grid drop for impeding a driver would also receive the corresponding penalty points.
Click to expand...

It opens up the possibility for small things to result in a race ban. A dangerous pit release results in 2 points for that driver, and if he has 10 points already, it means a teams mistake could result in a race ban for the driver.

Back markers could quite quickly rack up points for ignoring blue flags or inpeeding other drivers. We see stewards investigations about them all the time.
 
Last edited:
Its actually 3 times.

You commit an offence and get punished
Then both the offence and the punishment earn you penalty points
Then the penalty points get you a race ban

I wonder if they go full retard and would give you 5 points for the race ban that you get for having 12 points?
 
I like the idea but don't like the currently suggested implementation. Having someone race banned in the example above for a team's unsafe release, or for being late to a driver meeting (1 point) would obviously be horrible for the fans.

But I see this as a way to properly conduct the sort of ban that grosjean rightfully received last year.
 
Its the combination of applying the current penalties and then these points on top that I don't like. Basically they are making all penalties far more severe.
 
Its not far different than the system used in football, i.e. you get penalised directly within the game and indirectly during the season (like collecting a number of yellow cards over a season leads to a match ban).

I dont see the issue myself, though Im not for such a system in motorsport/F1, not the way it looks like it will be implemented...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Yes, but the yellow card is the single penalty. Giving someone 5 penalty points for getting a race ban, itself a penalty, would be like giving someone a yellow card because they got a yellow card.
 
No thats not how it works, those yellow cards add up so when you get 5 (IIRC) you get a match ban. Its the same here where you get penalised, but then the equivalent points are dished out, which accumulate over a season that might lead to further penalties.

Effectively one system deals directly with incidents on the 'day' (current penalties, though obviously some are actioned at the next race), the other system deals with conduct throughout the season (the new points system). I just hope they spent some time researching previous seasons to work out the weight of the points and how many are needed to cause those bans, it really should be an effective deterrent thats rarely implemented (So only the extraordinary poor drivers get slapped), once you think like that its hard to justify its introduction considering how ineffectively they use the current system of penalties.

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
Last edited:
First line of the table, Race ban, 5 points.

To get a race ban you will need to have done something serious, which will also be in the list. Say a dangerous collision. Thats 3 points.

So you cause a dangerous crash, and get a race ban as a penalty. But the crash gets you 3 points too, and the race ban gets you another 5 points, so 8 penalty points. If you had a couple of dangerous pit releases earlier in the season so your already carrying 4 points that single incident then earns you 2 race bans.

But the penalty race ban you got for having 12 points for having a race ban earns you another 5 points, so after you serve your penalty bans and come back, you already have another 5 points too your name (this last bit might not happen).

Drivers could do something, get penalised, get penalised again, then get penalised for being penalised, then get a ban for being penalised for being penalised for doing something wrong.

Or my favourite, get a race ban for getting stuck in traffic getting to the track. That will go down well with the fans :rolleyes:.
 
Last edited:
Janesy B said:
A dangerous exit from a pit stop is 2 points so they need to do it SIX times before a ban is imposed and yes if you've been banned previously you should have a stricter point limit before you are banned again (which is what they are doing effectively by adding on 5 points for a race ban). Stops people from pushing their luck all the time. Even the teams are behind it, so it's something they obviously want.

Don't even know what deuse is talking about by saying F1 is now 'dead'. Stupid overreaction.
Click to expand...

Its cumulative points. Drivers could quite easily rack up 11 points in a season through just a few minor things. The blue flags one will be common for the back markers. Pit releases are also common and not the drivers fault.

But then when your riding on 11 points anything that you do gets you a race ban, even such a little thing as being late to a driver briefing. Is that fair?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom