Fidelity Super Resolution 2.0

Nexus18 · 12 May 2022 at 11:55

nvidiamd said:
FSR:

DLSS:

FSR + Sharpening:

It is the same thing, it depends on how much sharpening you add. I guess both are made with neural networks trained on 16k res images.

Whilst you're not going to notice that in motion and not at a zoom level of that %, you can easily see where DLSS is better especially with rendering the grate/thin edges on the truck/bottom right, not to mention other areas like the text. Adding sharpening just worsens the IQ on the whole, look at all the extra noise it produces as well as adding artifacts to the edges. No idea how people like/use it tbh....

Either way, FSR 2 is still worthwhile. In games, with both, I'll still use dlss since it looks to better so far but in games that only have FSR 2, I'll use it.

Although still need to see some other games and more motion tests.

JediFragger · 12 May 2022 at 11:58

LtMatt said:
You can choose not to believe me course

Deal!!!

Wrinkly · 12 May 2022 at 12:02

I've not seen anything to suggest FSR 2 is AI trained. Anyone?

DLSS and XeSS are AI trained and will use hardware AI cores to operate at their best as that is what they are designed to use. I'm sure both could use normal shader cores, as FSR does, this has never been under dispute. Indeed XeSS running on other vendor's GPUs are proof of this. Of course using seperate dedicated hardware may and will in the future produce better performance, e.g. next gen tensor cores are between 2-6 times faster than current.

All competing products, DLSS, FSR and XeSS, will for the moment require access to multiple frames, motion vectors and access to the depth buffer, hence Nvidia's Streamline https://developer.nvidia.com/rtx/streamline making sure competition is kept.

The idea that console developers would simply choose FSR over anything else makes little sense as both Sony, Microsoft and third party all wish to sell titles within the PC market which has many including myself unwilling to settle for console class graphics. I expect better.

And finally of course the future. We can expect such tech to branch off into other areas such as raytracing acceleration, NPC construction, etc. and at differing pace per hardware vendor resulting in choice.

Harlequin · 12 May 2022 at 12:33

Oh look paused and zoomed images to prove a point

Wrinkly · 12 May 2022 at 12:41

Harlequin said:
Oh look paused and zoomed images to prove a point

I've never been one to be concerned by such. My appreciation for DLSS so far has been due to the reduciton of shimmer within fine detail.

Nexus18 · 12 May 2022 at 12:42

JediFragger said:
Deal!!!

Not a question of not believing him, it just goes against how all the usual sponsorship deals work.... that and it also contains other nvidia technologies such as reflex + low latency, which again, is usually blocked/not implemented in amd sponsored games.

If that is how it works these days, then fair enough.

Although I do recall of dlss not getting added on release day until the second patch? So maybe there is some truth in that after all.....

Wrinkly said:
I've not seen anything to suggest FSR 2 is AI trained. Anyone?

DLSS and XeSS are AI trained and will use hardware AI cores to operate at their best as that is what they are designed to use. I'm sure both could use normal shader cores, as FSR does, this has never been under dispute. Indeed XeSS running on other vendor's GPUs are proof of this. Of course using seperate dedicated hardware may and will in the future produce better performance, e.g. next gen tensor cores are between 2-6 times faster than current.

All competing products, DLSS, FSR and XeSS, will for the moment require access to multiple frames, motion vectors and access to the depth buffer, hence Nvidia's Streamline https://developer.nvidia.com/rtx/streamline making sure competition is kept.

The idea that console developers would simply choose FSR over anything else makes little sense as both Sony, Microsoft and third party all wish to sell titles within the PC market which has many including myself unwilling to settle for console class graphics. I expect better.

And finally of course the future. We can expect such tech to branch off into other areas such as raytracing acceleration, NPC construction, etc. and at differing pace per hardware vendor resulting in choice.

No idea.

I'm still waiting on an answer as to what fsr 2 is based on as generally all of amds tech is based on something open source/standard i.e. FSR 1 based on the lancoz sharpening filter (obviously with other tweaks), freesync based on adaptive sync and so on.

Harlequin said:
Oh look paused and zoomed images to prove a point

Same way we had the amd fans doing the same with dlss 1 and RIS and then with FSR 1 and dlss 2 and claiming the dlss killer eh :cry:

If FSR 2 has perfectly clear motion compared to native or/and dlss, you know fine well, we'll be seeing the super slow motion videos comparing them and praising FSR 2 as the next coming :cry:

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which side you sit on, comparisons will be made.

Lets put it this way, if given the choice to gamers, regardless of which brand you use, which one would everyone be using? (obviously based on just deathloop since that is all we have so far) DLSS or FSR 2?

LtMatt · 12 May 2022 at 12:47

nvidiamd said:
FSR:

DLSS:

FSR + Sharpening:

It is the same thing, it depends on how much sharpening you add. I guess both are made with neural networks trained on 16k res images.

I think the last image looks the best out of all them personally, more detail. However, they are all very similar and I would not be able to spot the difference whilst playing.

Nexus18 · 12 May 2022 at 12:56

LtMatt said:
I think the last image looks the best out of all them personally, more detail. However, they are all very similar and I would not be able to spot the difference whilst playing.

Each to their own and all that but technically you aren't seeing more detail, the sharpening is just clearing up the slight softening that comes from TAA/dlss/FSR 2 tech (I find the softer image is more natural/easier on the eyes). Generally the over sharpening is more obvious in motion especially if it increases the aliasing on the edges/over sharpens edges. Horizon zero dawn will be a good one to test as the foliage in that looked awful with FSR 1 compared to native/TAA and DLSS because of FSR 1 just being a spatial/sharpener upscaling algorithm.

Agree on the last point though.

tommybhoy · 12 May 2022 at 14:16

The amount of greetn from some Nv users because AMD give out upscaling tech at no cost to everyone...

SaxoSalt.gif *

*Other types of saltiness available

nvidiamd · 12 May 2022 at 14:30

Nexus18 said:
Adding sharpening just worsens the IQ on the whole, look at all the extra noise it produces as well as adding artifacts to the edges. No idea how people like/use it tbh...

The only difference i see in the screenshots is that DLSS is more sharpened than FSR2. That's why it looks to have more detail. Once you add sharpening to FSR, you won't be able to spot the difference at least on screenshots between FSR quality and DLSS quality.
Probably FSR + Sharpening is oversharpened but you are able to change the sharpening level.

fs123 · 12 May 2022 at 14:35

Nexus18 said:
Each to their own and all that but technically you aren't seeing more detail, the sharpening is just clearing up the slight softening that comes from TAA/dlss/FSR 2 tech (I find the softer image is more natural/easier on the eyes). Generally the over sharpening is more obvious in motion especially if it increases the aliasing on the edges/over sharpens edges. Horizon zero dawn will be a good one to test as the foliage in that looked awful with FSR 1 compared to native/TAA and DLSS because of FSR 1 just being a spatial/sharpener upscaling algorithm.

Agree on the last point though.

The last image is clearly better if you look for the finer details such as the hinges and the writing on the box. If you saw the middle image on its own you would not be able to read what's written on the box at all. The sharpened image brings out the text and it is possible to see some letters like 'APMC' and numbers such as 36. AMD's CAS is quite a bit better than a standard sharpening algorithm as we have seen numerous times when it launched years ago.

Not sure how well Nvidia's sharpening would improve the image but from my own experience with my 3080 and previous 5700XT, AMD's CAS is better. Nvidia's shapening+ in GFE is a resource hog which can affect fps by 5-10% in some cases.

Gerard · 12 May 2022 at 14:50

Nexus18 said:
and claiming the dlss killer eh

Pretty sure it's tech sites running with that phrase for clicks......

Chuk_Chuk · 12 May 2022 at 15:00

LtMatt said:
They said it couldn't be done, that you need additional hardware. Open source FTW.

AMD FSR 2.0 Quality & Performance Review - The DLSS Killer

AMD FSR 2.0 Quality & Performance Review - The DLSS Killer

We're reviewing AMD's new FSR 2.0 upscaling technology, which offers amazing image quality improvements that are able to match the visual finesse of NVIDIA's DLSS. The great thing is that the new FSR doesn't require any special hardware and works even on NVIDIA GeForce and Intel.

www.techpowerup.com

Fair play to AMD, they really managed to catch up to Nvidia in under 2 years that is impressive.

I still have no plans of touching any of that upscaling nonsense though

Nexus18 · 12 May 2022 at 15:04

As said, each to their own and all. But you can easily see the over sharpening happening in the last screenshot with the extra noise produced, also just look at the shadow.

Whilst obviously different use cases/scenarios, it's much the same story with editing photos. I use lightroom to add some ever so slight sharpening but try to avoid it as then you need to mess with denoising etc.

Sharpening Simplified - Exposure Software

We’ve all used sharpening during post-processing before. It’s something as common as retouching red-eye or removing skin blemishes. Unfortunately, it’s commonly misunderstood. First, let’s get […]

exposure.software

RDR 2 would be a very good test as that game has the worst of everything, over sharpening, blur galore.

But as I've said before, a lot of people like over sharpening and can't see the issues it causes e.g. look at all the people that run RIS at 80+%..... There is nothing wrong with having a preference for that but I wouldn't classify it as being "better".

Thankfully it is something that can be turned off on both sides though.

Gerard said:
Pretty sure it's tech sites running with that phrase for clicks......

You also had plenty of people saying the same in here.

Poneros · 12 May 2022 at 15:05

Gerard · 12 May 2022 at 15:08

Nexus18 said:
You also had plenty of people saying the same in here.

Examples? If any theyre probably parroting the techsite bs.

sparkymark75 · 12 May 2022 at 15:14

I suppose this also gives you an insight into nVidias approach to supporting customers on older products of theirs, e.g. none. Those customers are having to rely on the competition to provide an upscaling solution for their GPUs.

LtMatt · 12 May 2022 at 15:14

Poneros said:

Good find Poneros!

Found it interesting that he notes that DLSS has ghosting in the 1440 example on the gun, whereas FSR 2.0 has none. The trails are visible on the video too. :eek:

Nexus18 · 12 May 2022 at 15:26

"better than native quality"

:cry:

Would you agree @LtMatt and all the others that questioned/denied dlss' "better than native" claim ?

Motion wise, seems they both have their own traits but dlss comes out on top ever so slightly from looks of it but as noted, won't be noticed in normal gameplay. Think we can say this is most likely based on TSR?

Does look very good on the whole and better than native on the whole so that alone is enough reason to use it even if no need for extra perf. As said earlier, for nvidia users, it will be use DLSS where supported and FSR 2 for where DLSS isn't supported.

Still want to see more games with it though as it seems like amd have been working on/fine tuning FSR 2 for deathloop for ages now....

Gerard said:
Examples? If any theyre probably parroting the techsite bs.

Just read through this thread....

You had/have plenty of people comparing it to the whole freesync killing of gsync thing too, even though as pointed out many times, they are completely different scenarios.....

LtMatt said:
Good find Poneros!

Found it interesting that he notes that DLSS has ghosting in the 1440 example on the gun, whereas FSR 2.0 has none. The trails are visible on the video too.

Nexus18 said:
Same way we had the amd fans doing the same with dlss 1 and RIS and then with FSR 1 and dlss 2 and claiming the dlss killer eh If FSR 2 has perfectly clear motion compared to native or/and dlss, you know fine well, we'll be seeing the super slow motion videos comparing them and praising FSR 2 as the next coming

There was some ever so slight ghosting in the fsr image too despite what tim said in that scene, but yeah dlss definitely exhibited it more noticeably there.

LtMatt · 12 May 2022 at 15:32

Nexus18 said:
"better than native quality"

Would you agree @LtMatt and all the others that questioned/denied dlss' "better than native" claim ?

Motion wise, seems they both have their own traits but dlss comes out on top ever so slightly from looks of it but as noted, won't be noticed in normal gameplay. Think we can say this is most likely based on TSR?

Does look very good on the whole and better than native on the whole so that alone is enough reason to use it even if no need for extra perf. As said earlier, for nvidia users, it will be use DLSS where supported and FSR 2 for where DLSS isn't supported.

Still want to see more games with it though as it seems like amd have been working on/fine tuning FSR 2 for deathloop for ages now....

Just read through this thread....

You had/have plenty of people comparing it to the whole freesync killing of gsync thing too, even though as pointed out many times, they are completely different scenarios.....

There was some ever so slight ghosting in the fsr image too despite what tim said in that scene, but yeah dlss definitely exhibited it more noticeably there.

Only 'better than native' if the TAA has noticeable flickering issues like Deathloop and or some other games IMO. For most games, native is king. Always.

However, FSR has the AMD special sauce sharpening that DLSS lacks, so this might change the landscape a little since I know how good (Radeon Image Sharpening (RIS) and contrast adaptive sharpening (CAS) are).

So I'll have to revisit my first sentence above once I've tried a few FSR 2.0 games to see if we truly could get better than native. I'm sceptical though because you have native + Radeon Image Sharpening and that combo is tough to beat.