Fidelity Super Resolution in 2021

Zefan · 18 Mar 2021 at 17:26

I can see the logic behind this. AMD have seen big success in both console and mobile markets recently, so to create something that doesn't totally rely on specific silicon is sensible. I say this while also hoping (and somewhat assuming) that this isn't the entirety of their DLSS competition plans.

Chuk_Chuk · 18 Mar 2021 at 17:57

I'm assuming that, if they had built FSR around DirectML it would have been tied to only working on DirectX games?

Grim5 · 18 Mar 2021 at 19:17

Chuk_Chuk said:
I'm assuming that, if they had built FSR around DirectML it would have been tied to only working on DirectX games?

Direct X 12.1 only most likely. The benefit of a software solution in the driver is that it can be applied to a wide range of games straight away where as hardware must be coded for.

What intrigues me though is that Xbox Series X, Microsoft said they put some AI cores into it so that it could use DirectML, where as both the PS5 and the RDNA2 desktop GPUs do not contain those cores. Microsoft has not revealed much else, I can't wait to see what they do with those cores in the future.

The way I see things shaking out is that in a couple years from now all PC GPUs are using DirectML with fixed function AI cores (be that Lovelace or RDNA3) and things like software FSR is just a stop gap and I think DirectML can amalgamate DLSS into itself

D1craig · 18 Mar 2021 at 19:47

if AMD release this before its ready they will get slated, even if its like DLSS was when that released (completely ****) and theybwill be haunted by it for many years... they have to get it as close as possible to perfect.

Nexus18 · 18 Mar 2021 at 19:54

Also, it sounds like it might not even make it out this year with the way he worded it:

We want to launch it this year. We belive we can do that this year, but at the same time we a lot more work ahead of us

To me that sounds like it is very likely it could slip into next year

Even more so when it reads like they are still in the phase of investigating on what way to go ....

sparkymark75 · 18 Mar 2021 at 19:55

Hear it directly from the horses mouth...

https://youtu.be/jENqMuHJgow?t=1962

nvidiamd · 18 Mar 2021 at 20:04

Grim5 said:
AMD is not ruling out machine learning, my interpretation of what AMD said is that right now FSR does not utilise it but could in the future. This is more than likely because RDNA2 doesn't contain any Tensor like cores, but if RDNA3 does then FSR could be updated to use it - they're just giving themselves some wiggle room for the future

Grim5 said:
What intrigues me though is that Xbox Series X, Microsoft said they put some AI cores into it so that it could use DirectML, where as both the PS5 and the RDNA2 desktop GPUs do not contain those cores. Microsoft has not revealed much else, I can't wait to see what they do with those cores in the future.

Wrong!

When needed some compute units will run the tensor math. Of course it is better to have separate hardware like Nvidia has ( or maybe it is better to have a lot of compute units because you don't need to run tensor math all the time ). But there is nothing a tensor core can do that a normal compute unit cannot do. The tensor core is a dumbed down version of a compute unit that can only run tensor math. There is a reason for why Nvidia has them ( because they are using them in their pro line of cards and it is easier to make chips for both lines if they look the same ) and there is a reason for why Big Navi does not have them ( because upscaling on Radeon is a thing for the future and it is better to put more compute units on your chip than some dumbed down units that you will not use most of the time ).

But to be honest, you get more hardware for your money if you buy a 3080 than a 6800xt because the performance is equal when tensor cores are not used. So lets say the 3080 and the 6800xt have the same performance when running on the compute units. You get the tensor cores and extra performance for upscaling/denoising for free on Nvidia.

nvidiamd · 18 Mar 2021 at 20:19

I mean if you put 10% extra compute units on your chipset instead of tensor cores, maybe that's understandable and you can get the same performance on denoising/upscaling + extra performance when you don't need denoising/upscaling. Compute units will work all the time.
But when we compare the 3080 with the 6800xt it doesn't look like the Big Navi has extra performance when denoising/upscaling is not used. So there are no extra compute units compared with the 3080. You pay the same for less hardware since you get the tensor cores on the 3080.

ASMB · 18 Mar 2021 at 20:30

In the future players might not have the option to game in native resolution as machine learning like directml might be used by default to upscale images, so reducing the size of downloaded games. AMD and Microsoft will be in discussions as to how to use directml. Microsoft have the big resources to put behind this so AMD might be leaving MS to do most of the development on ML. I understand AMD did put those Int8 and Int4 shown above in the Radeon 6000 series as Microsoft identified that they helped with ML.

Xbox studio using AI to upscale low-res textures in real-time | TweakTown

Grim5 · 18 Mar 2021 at 20:39

I don't see how direct ml will lower game file sizes. The idea with ML is to feed it with high quality textures when you ask it to reconstruct an image - if you feed it crap you'll get crap out, games will still texture files as high quality as they can be

nvidiamd · 18 Mar 2021 at 20:46

Grim5 said:
I don't see how direct ml will lower game file sizes. The idea with ML is to feed it with high quality textures when you ask it to reconstruct an image - if you feed it crap you'll get crap out, games will still texture files as high quality as they can be

You feed the big servers with high texture files not the home users computers. Then you get the math from the servers and you feed the home users with that math and lower res images.

Robert · 18 Mar 2021 at 21:01

Nexus18 said:
Also, it sounds like it might not even make it out this year with the way he worded it:

To me that sounds like it is very likely it could slip into next year

Even more so when it reads like they are still in the phase of investigating on what way to go ....

Until it’s released, there’s always a chance it could slip, so don’t really agree tbh.

nvidiamd · 18 Mar 2021 at 21:26

Nexus18 said:
Also, it sounds like it might not even make it out this year with the way he worded it:

To me that sounds like it is very likely it could slip into next year

Even more so when it reads like they are still in the phase of investigating on what way to go ....

I think you are being optimistic if you think it will come up next year.
Tbh AMD needs to fire the whole software dev team because they are incompetent and lazy. The biggest enemy of AMD is not Nvidia but their own software developers.

Don't expect good things coming from AMD unless they change something in the software management and they hire a ton of talented people. They make great hardware but the software support stinks.

henson0115 · 18 Mar 2021 at 21:50

nvidiamd said:
You feed the big servers with high texture files not the home users computers. Then you get the math from the servers and you feed the home users with that math and lower res images.

Its almost like Nvidia brainwashed people to think dlss does the hard work at the card level.

people talk about hardware again behind the whole thing but forget it's not the hardware on the card doing the magic, it's just presenting the magic.

Hedge · 18 Mar 2021 at 21:55

By the time this is in use we will be knocking on the door of the next gen of cards anyway so probably not so desperate for these scaling features.

Gerard · 18 Mar 2021 at 22:08

Hedge said:
By the time this is in use we will be knocking on the door of the next gen of cards anyway so probably not so desperate for these scaling features.

It'll likely transfer across to the next gen as well so be interesting to see what it can do anyway.

Nexus18 · 18 Mar 2021 at 22:24

Here's hoping next gen of amd cards will be good as they won't have to worry about console supply then.

nvidiamd said:
I think you are being optimistic if you think it will come up next year.
Tbh AMD needs to fire the whole software dev team because they are incompetent and lazy. The biggest enemy of AMD is not Nvidia but their own software developers.
Don't expect good things coming from AMD unless they change something in the software management and they hire a ton of talented people. They make great hardware but the software support stinks.

Disagree there, their drivers are superior to nvidia and on the whole, they do offer more features. I really miss the amd drivers, thankfully not something I go into very often though!

But not having a dlss competitor until later this year or potentially next year is a real let down, this gives nvidia pretty much free reign of the market to get dlss in as many games as possible now, heck they'll probably have dlss 3.0 out sooner than amd have their first version out.... So whenever amd do release it, they really will need to hit a home run with it, can't have it delivering worse IQ or/and offering very little to performance improvements....

ASMB · 18 Mar 2021 at 22:56

Gerard said:
It'll likely transfer across to the next gen as well so be interesting to see what it can do anyway.

Definitely. Microsoft have released the Xbox series S as a digital download machine, and with Xbox pass as well, want people to download games. If they can cut download size just in half by using upscaling AI then think of the bandwidth they will save, and the amount of servers and telecom equipment needed to provide the downloads. It might be costing them a massive amount in research to achieve their goal but you can be sure it will save them more in the long run. They will present it to the average gamer as benefitting them by shorter game download times.

RBImGuy · 20 Mar 2021 at 14:47

nvidiamd said:
I think you are being optimistic if you think it will come up next year.
Tbh AMD needs to fire the whole software dev team because they are incompetent and lazy. The biggest enemy of AMD is not Nvidia but their own software developers.
Don't expect good things coming from AMD unless they change something in the software management and they hire a ton of talented people. They make great hardware but the software support stinks.

The evidence shows the opposite tho.
Not to say they cant do better and they will.
I am sure you can rewrite the whole driver in a day and it works perfectly on all games.

nvidiamd · 20 Mar 2021 at 17:33

DLSS is like 2 years old. Big Navi and the promise of a super resolution from AMD are already 6 months old. Let's say they never worked on that before the launch, even if all companies were working with Microsoft to see how they can get directML implemented. Not to mention they have MS and Sony willing to work with them for this feature.
So after 6 months, what do we hear? That "there are a number of ways we can do it". Which means almost nothing is really done, this is the first thing they should decide, which way they should use for upscaling.
If you are satisfied with their answer, then good for you. But i think it will be a miracle to see upsampling coming from AMD this year.