Caporegime
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Because if something cannot be done and agreed to then in my opinion league is null and void.
Football and the Coronavirus
- Thread starter Robbo
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Because if something cannot be done and agreed to then in my opinion league is null and void.
Caporegime
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I am not sure. It is not my job
. I just want something in place that takes into account remaining opposition and current league form.If you honestly believe Man Utd's lawyers are going to accept a 5th place finish then you are more delusional than I am!
Soldato
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I don't see what difference it makes from a United point of view? If they null and void the season then we wouldn't be in the CL next year anyway, if we do it on ppg game or current league standings then we'd only be in if City's ban is upheld. I too think that United would have taken fourth place if the season hadn't been interrupted, but who's to say that United come back in the same sort of form, or that other teams don't pick up their form? If football does manage to resume then form is completely out of the window, some teams might be in better shape than others, some will have all their injured players back, etc. In that sense United might actually be better off, because we'll likely have Rashford and Pogba back if the season can resume.
With regards the French league decision, their approach seems really odd to me. I don't understand why they're only relegating two teams, is it normal that only the bottom two get automatically relegated? I agree that Toulouse were dead and buried, but arguably Amiens could have fought their way to safety, being only seven points adrift with ten games to play is definitely something that can be overhauled. I'm hoping the Premier League take a different approach.
With regards the French league decision, their approach seems really odd to me. I don't understand why they're only relegating two teams, is it normal that only the bottom two get automatically relegated? I agree that Toulouse were dead and buried, but arguably Amiens could have fought their way to safety, being only seven points adrift with ten games to play is definitely something that can be overhauled. I'm hoping the Premier League take a different approach.
Soldato
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Bet that wouldn’t be your attitude if manu were top of the league and going to win it in one more game
They will because just like you've failed to, they'll fail to come up with any sort of persuasive argument as to why Utd were more likely to finish 4th than Chelsea were. Further to that, UEFA's guidelines don't appear to allow for any scenario where Utd would finish above Chelsea. The possible options that have been floated, to determine the final standings if no more games can be played, are PPG, roll back to the last completed round of fixtures (before the League Cup final - Utd still in 5th) or at the table based on every side playing each other once (the least likely solution and would have Utd 8th). There's no prospect of calculating future results based on the opposition because it's hugely subjective and impossible to calculate.I am not sure. It is not my job
If you honestly believe Man Utd's lawyers are going to accept a 5th place finish then you are more delusional than I am!
The only sides that will have a realistic chance of challenging a PPG final table would be Sheffield Utd and Villa. Their PPG would be based on a different number of games to all but City & Arsenal, and the outcome of the game between the two of them would have likely made a material difference to who finishes 5th and who gets relegated.
The bottom two get relegated automatically and then 18th place plays a play-off vs the 3rd place side in Ligue 2 to decide whether there's a 3rd relegation/promotion. With no more games to be played there cannot be a play-off so 18th are safe.
I just looked at the PPG thing and it seems the only difference (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that Arsenal and Spurs swap places (8th and 9th), and also Sheffield and Wolves (6th and 7th)?
I'm surprised to say I haven't really missed football at all. I say that as someone that regularly watches premier league and CL, two sons that play and play myself.
I'm surprised to say I haven't really missed football at all. I say that as someone that regularly watches premier league and CL, two sons that play and play myself.
they freeze the league based on games played surely. 4 teams are a game behind. If we look at permutation of those "missing games" top of table not really affected very much, bottom is a bit more tricky. I don't think it affects who wins the league, it's at the bottom the problem comes as to who should be 17th and dropped?
Yeah not many changes but Wolves will complain that had Sheff Utd lost their game in hand then they would have had the same PPG and Wolves would have still been above them on GD. Not to mention if 6th place is a Europa League qualifying spot due to City's ban(?) then they would lose a lot of money from it next season.
There is no real answer in terms of a fixed formula solution you're always going to have clubs objecting to it, I think the FA and EFL need to just figure something out and try to get all of the clubs to agree to it before hand. Otherwise null and void.
There is no real answer in terms of a fixed formula solution you're always going to have clubs objecting to it, I think the FA and EFL need to just figure something out and try to get all of the clubs to agree to it before hand. Otherwise null and void.
Caporegime
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Chelsea still had to play Liverpool and City. We had Spurs away who were in terrible form and the rest against lower opposition. Is that difficult to understand? I am sure if they could come about with some sort of algorithm going with the current form and a algorithm to decide the remaining fixtures. United would finish above Chelsea.
Unless something is agreed with all teams I see nothing but null and void happening.
It's not difficult to understand, it's just meaningless. Neither Liverpool or City would have anything to play for by the time they played Chelsea, so I assume you'd factor that in and give Chelsea a greater chance of winning? Will your algorithm take into account Utd's struggles against lesser sides? And what's 'recent form'? 3 games? 10 games? And why would x amount of games count for more than 28 games?
The one thing that won't happen is null and void. UEFA have taken that off the table. They have been crystal clear that European qualification must be based on performances from the 19/20 season. PPG is not perfect and there will be clubs that will feel aggrieved but unless somebody can come up with an obviously fairer way of concluding the season then they will have an incredibly difficult job challenging it. All Leagues that have ended early have used it to determine the final standings and I suspect that will be the case for every other League that doesn't complete.
It looks like Lyon will try to challenge it in France but their arguments against it are very different and much more valid than "we might have won more games than them". They missed out on Europe as they finished the season in 7th place, with 4th, 5th and 6th taking the Europa spots. 5th and 6th wouldn't normally get European spots - these are awarded to the winners of the 2 French Cups. PSG were in the final of both cups, vs Lyon and St Etienne . Like in the PL, if PSG won the finals then the European spot would then go to the League. Lyon's arguement is in two parts. Firstly they believe that the European spots for the 2 Cup competitions should be given to themselves and St Etienne as they were in the final of the competitions and as the spots were earmarked for the Cups, it's fairer to award it to them than the League. And secondly, they're arguing that if they are awarded to the League then it should be based on the last round of completed fixtures (where Lyon would be 5th(?)) as that is a more even playing field than PPG.
Soldato
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United had been ***** all season and wouldn’t have finished above Chelsea, it’s more likely that wolves and Sheffield United would have finished above Manchester United
Soldato
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Ah in which case their approach makes sense. I think given how close things are in the PL it would be incredibly harsh to relegate Villa and Bournemouth, and arguably even Norwich.
Soldato
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Behave, I don't agree with @adam cool dude but we were in excellent form when the league ended, plus our remaining fixtures were very favourable. Chelsea still had to play Liverpool, Wolves and Sheffield United and were in up and down form. There were 3 points separating us and Chelsea, I think it's likely we would have overtaken them. Having said that, it's a hypothetical situation. The fact is Chelsea are above us in the table so they will get Champions League if the season can't be resumed.
Null and void just isn't going to happen. UEFA have already made it clear that leagues that do that risk their European spots for next season and there's no way that the Premier League will take that risk. It'll be based on PPG or current league standings, neither of which put us in the CL, so we have to hope that City's ban is upheld.
Chelsea haven't exactly been consistent all season in the first place, no reason to believe they would win those games even if Liverpool / City didn't have anything more than Pride to play for (and they have Leicester and Liverpool away which should also factor into the algorithm which Im sure doesn't come anywhere near ppg either)
On the other hand , Utd have significantly improved since Jan in goals scored (yes even against the lesser teams, and even beat the team that Liverpool got thrashed by recently, god forbid!!) and less conceded - just because Chelsea couldn't or didn't want to strengthen in Jan , doesn't mean any thing should be weighted much more towards the beginning of the season …...even without those additions Pogba would have been fit for the run in and would have also improved Man Utd significantly over the comparable matches from the start of the season, not to mention formation changes which have also helped Utd recently.
Given Utd also had Leicester last match of the season - and their form had dipped (they won one in the last 5) its not inconceivable Utd and Chelsea could have been above them too - 6 point gain in 8 games to make the head to head interesting...….certainly not impossible by any means.
Im sure there are just as many combinations for Europa and relegation places.
Personally I say promote two (or three) from the championship , don't relegate anyone (even if that means every match week one team doesn't play) and relegate 4 or 6 at the end of 2021. I understand the EFL Cup is going soon anyway so scrap it next year (at least for EPL teams) and friendly internationals and you should be able to make up enough additional match days to accommodate.
edit - yeah Utd have been ****, beating Chelsea and Man City three times each this season, Ole has grown into the position with a very mismatched squad accumulated from 4 previous managers, and found some consistency and managed to get over all pretty decent results vs top six sides and also just working out systems with Jan signings admittedly, that work against those that sit back.
Players care more about their lives than qualifying for Europe next season, so what's going to happen with Dutch teams then? if UEFA kick out 2-3 countries it's not going to be much of a tournament. It's going to be pretty hollow to win the Champion's League/Europa League with even just one major country missing through no fault of their own. If that's UEFA's stance then they're being pretty unreasonable.
Blimey, long time no see Frank. You're right, Chelsea haven't been consistent and they're still ahead of Utd.
I've just rolled the table back to after the last game of December, Utd were 4 points behind Chelsea so despite that significant improvement in goals scored etc etc, Utd have gained 1 point on Chelsea in 9 games. With just 9 games to go we should assume that Utd would gain a further 1 point but still finish behind Chelsea.
And as omnom says above and I've said previously, you cannot on one hand say "we've played harder games" to justify your arguement about catching Chelsea and on the other hand point out that you've won them. That would indicate that Utd have lost more of the easier games and therefore Utd are more likely to drop points from their remaining games than had they had to play Liverpool, City etc.
The Dutch settled their positions on PPG, in line with what UEFA instructed Leagues to do. Nobody will get kicked out because no League will void their season.
Soldato
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As per what Baz just said, the Dutch league didn't void their season as such, they are using current standings for the purpose of European spots but without crowning a champion, relegating any teams or promoting any teams.
Caporegime
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This is the point though. We are all sitting here and arguing about it between ourselves. What do think the clubs and their legal teams will be doing when the league makes a decision that doesn't bode with them. Premier League is a different kettle of fish to other leagues.
Say what you like but I cannot accept the fact that we beat Cheslea 3 times this season quite convincingly and seeing them get into the Champions league ahead of us! I would be quite happy for a playoff situation however. Chelsea had so many jammy and scrappy wins. Arsenal for example. We have played both City and Liverpool twice. They have not.