Football Banter Thread

LOL as if UEFA are going to ban the big teams for not making FFP, at best they will get a big fine and that will be that.

Although it would be nice to see UEFA grow a pair of ****ing balls and ban these teams like Liverpool, PSG and City to name but a few. Sure they will be missing out on CL but it will make them get their books in order for them to compete the next season.

Dont forget Man United they are in a horrible financial position with that £400 million debt. They are paying massive amounts of Interest as well on that debt also losing out on CL football probably wont hit them hard financially as they have that new Chevrolet deal coming along with the DHL sponsor for the training ground.

Liverpool are in a decent position they are spending within their means from what it looks like i think they will be ok.
 
The last set of accounts were only 10 months DM. Had you annualised them (based on there being minimal income but the same costs in those additional 2 monthsl) then losses are down from last year. And the loans from fsg are interest free.

Errm, while I see that most places are reporting it as 10 months, I'm not sure how you get that a 49.8mil loss over 12 months is down on 40.5 mil over 10 months you could only really say this was 48.6mil over 12 months in comparison. But it doesn't factor in the 30mil increase in commercial revenue which led to the 49.8mil loss. When you bring in actually 36mil more in commercial, a mil more in media, even if your losses stay the same that would be pretty bad in and of itself.


Dont forget Man United they are in a horrible financial position with that £400 million debt. They are paying massive amounts of Interest as well on that debt also losing out on CL football probably wont hit them hard financially as they have that new Chevrolet deal coming along with the DHL sponsor for the training ground.

Liverpool are in a decent position they are spending within their means from what it looks like i think they will be ok.

400million debt doesn't mean bad financial position at all, debt has nothing to do with financial position, your ability to service the debt determines your financial position. It's actually AFAIK more like 360mil of debt now and their commercial is about to shoot through the roof as of I believe next season.

They are showing a profit while paying off debt and interest. That shows what a GOOD financial position they are in and it's only getting stronger. Being out of the champs league would be problematic longer term. Players somewhere like Utd likely can negotiate contracts without lower pay for being out of the champs league but maybe their wages would drop significantly being out of the CL. The increase in commercial will offset that for at least a year, but once the club has more money coming in the players want more of it and as such wages pretty quickly scale up after commercial does. So 60mil more commercial income/profit will within 2-3 years mean most likely 40-60mil more on wages throughout the team. 25 players getting between 10-50k more a week adds up quickly.

There is no team in the league in as strong a financial position as Utd and few in the world. Real have huge debt(though it's afaik basically state backed and they don't do anything about it? or have they magically written it off by now), Bayern and Barca are mostly speaking debt free and very strong. City/PSG/Monaco/Chelsea are mostly speaking extremely poorly run, financially non viable teams that can't survive without owners ploughing money into the clubs, most are trying to get finances under control, but chelsea have been in money control mode for like 8 years and aren't doing very well.

As for Liverpool, a 50mil loss is not spending within their means, it's the opposite, while Utd ARE spending within their means, hence a profit, a profit while spending pretty much 50% more on wages than Liverpool(roughly speaking about 120mil vs 180mil). A 50mil loss when your wage spend is only 120mil is huge, a 20mil profit on a 160-180mil wage spend is very strong.
 
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DM my point was, Liverpool's debt is not much at all comparing it to United. If something bad happens at United it could effect their ability to pay off that debt. It's not going away any time soon so they will always have that hanging over them as well as apparently going to spend £100 million + this Summer. What happens if they spend that money and are still not reaching the top 4? as well as having huge debt that they owe?

If Liverpool get CL this year that would be huge for them and they should be in a stronger position financially which will help them in paying off the debt they have.
 
Errm, while I see that most places are reporting it as 10 months, I'm not sure how you get that a 49.8mil loss over 12 months is down on 40.5 mil over 10 months you could only really say this was 48.6mil over 12 months in comparison. But it doesn't factor in the 30mil increase in commercial revenue which led to the 49.8mil loss. When you bring in actually 36mil more in commercial, a mil more in media, even if your losses stay the same that would be pretty bad in and of itself.

The previous set of accounts excluded 2 months during the close season where there's no tv or ticket money coming in but most expenses (wages for example) are still being paid as normal. Had we filed a full years accounts last year you'd have had an extra £20m+ in wages alone which would have made the loss bigger than this year.

On top of the differences due to the accounting period change there's also an additional £11m loss on profit on player sales from last year - which is only a paper loss. The EBITA on these accounts compared to the annualised set from last time, we're much better off.

I've not looked through the accounts in detail yet but these results are a fair bit better than last years, although I expected them to be even better than they are. Looking at this season's accounts, with the additional Sky/BT money and hopefully no more writing off of player transfer values and stadium costs, we should be making money again.
 
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DM my point was, Liverpool's debt is not much at all comparing it to United. If something bad happens at United it could effect their ability to pay off that debt. It's not going away any time soon so they will always have that hanging over them as well as apparently going to spend £100 million + this Summer. What happens if they spend that money and are still not reaching the top 4? as well as having huge debt that they owe?

If Liverpool get CL this year that would be huge for them and they should be in a stronger position financially which will help them in paying off the debt they have.

Debt is not an indicator of financial strength, and CL won't necessarily put LIverpool in a stronger financial position. Generally speaking if team A is spending beyond their means before being in the CL< they will likely spend beyond their means after getting into the CL. It's when you can achieve it every year that sponsorship starts to increase dramatically, a one off doesn't do much. Eventually most extra revenue from things like the CL is simply taken up by wages. For some clubs this will be in the contracts of many existing players causing an instant almost identical rise in wages as you bring in through the CL, meaning very very little increase in profit from being in the CL. If you buy a couple players to attempt to stay in the CL and give them 100-200k a week, that is most of the CL money gone, a combination of both can easily end up increasing losses, as it has done for many many teams who got into the CL in the past.

Effectively if a team overspends on wages, they overspend on wages regardless of which competitions they get into. One of the biggest current problems Liverpool has is ticket prices in the north vs smaller stadium. Arsenal have a big stadium and insane ticket prices(and insane everything prices at the stadium). Utd have a bigger stadium but cheaper tickets, Liverpool have a significantly lower match day revenue. To compete with City/CHelsea/Utd/Arsenal they can either offer lower wages to everyone, need a bigger stadium to match Arsenal/Utd, or will run at a loss like City/Chelsea. There aren't many other options. Liverpool are missing a huge amount of income the two financially stable clubs above them have.


For instance, a bank would more happily loan Utd 500mil than Liverpool because of their strength.

If Utd dropped to 10th for the next 5 years, their existing and about to start sponsorship will still dwarf LIverpool's for those next 5 years. Utd can comfortably spend currently, around 180-190mil on wages without making a loss, Liverpool can't spend 130mil on wages without making a loss. As of next year Utd could probably be pushing around the 230mil mark a year in wages WITH a profit, Liverpool would maybe be pushing the 140mil mark with champs league money, if lucky.

Utd have massively, massively, massively stronger financially than liverpool and will be for the foreseeable future. It would take 5-10 year sponsorship deals at Utd to run out and them to have been outside of the top 4 for almost all that time with Liverpool inside the top 4 before the next round of sponsorship deals would possibly put Liverpool in a stronger financial position.

Debt is, and never has been an indicator of financial strength, it's one factor and the biggest way to compare debt is vs turnover/profitability. Currently Man Utd are profitable, Liverpool are not, from that very basic fact Utd can service the debt they have, Liverpool have been unable to.....

I don't remember saying Liverpool are going to collapse anywhere, or even hinting at it. I'm merely saying that suggesting Utd are in a weak financial position is so wholly and completely inaccurate it's insane to even say it, and Liverpool aren't in a strong, nor bad/terrible position. They are in a hugely better position than most teams in the league. Their losses are relatively small given the size of their turnover and size of it's fanbase.
 
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Are Liverpool going to collapse?

Apparently so, I think dm's solution is that you take Cashley off our hands. He'll sort you out considering he is the perfect owner....

These posts both pretty much sum up the football forums/ocuk forums/internet in general.

He's done many silly things and could have done much better. But none of this detracts from the fact that he saved the club, he inherited a crap manager who helped push them into a disastrous financial position, got them promoted again, has somewhat established them as a top half team... of which all will struggle if they have a season in europe + huge injury list.

I've defended him because he deserves defending and certainly doesn't deserve the **** he's been getting from Newcastle fans... this does not mean I think he's a brilliant owner, hasn't made mistakes, would want him at Arsenal.

This forum in particular, if I say Liverpool are not strong financially.... I'm in no way saying Liverpool are going to fold tomorrow, but that is how some are(maybe jokingly) taking it. LIkewise because I defend Cashley from the completely unfair criticism... I think he's never made a wrong step and is the bestest guy on earth.

I say I like Eboue and would prefer him to start over Song.... apparently means he's my favourite player of all time. I think Wenger has done a terrible job, thus I must hate him.

The amount of inferring done in this particular subforum but around the net in general is laughable.

Liverpool posting a loss is not good by any measure, Utd posting profit after paying down interest and debt is not bad by any measure.
 
I would not be surprised if, say Spurs do finish 5th, that they challenge UEFA for letting clubs with this debt get into the Champions League. Everyone knows how lucrative it is, so a couple of million in legal fees is something I'd expect Levy and Joe Lewis to do for the sake of £30m+.

Hell, it could even be the case that say Everton are there with Spurs that they jump in too if there's belief City are falling foul as well. I'm not sure United would though, I doubt they want their accounts scrutinised in open court...
 

It is worth pointing out that for 5 years, City, Chelsea and any other team in potential trouble has every single year banged on and on about how their massive losses won't ever remotely possibly count against them in terms of FFP, because generally speaking "we're moving towards breaking even", "our numbers are currently much stronger", "we're looking to bring youth through to supplement the existing team which will reduce our outgoings", excuse x eleventy billion.

Chelsea/City have made precisely the same claims, and tv money has increased, as has sponsorship. But both clubs are finding one thing, it's exceptionally difficult to reduce wages. They both WANT to bring in new people on lower wages than the situation they got into when they were spending big, but it turns out, players/agents all know what the existing players were on and use that as leverage at those and other clubs they are speaking to. So while CHelsea want to for instance spend 80k on Hazard's wages to replace say Lampard on 150k(longer term) in reality Hazard wanted as much/more than Lampard was on because that was the going rate. Same way Neymar knows what Messi is on and so got more than him despite being younger, less successful, not having been there.

We'll see what happens but for a club to claim there is no way they'll fail FFP, is laughably empty considering what City/Chelsea have been claiming for years. Ultimately both are skirting the laws massively to attempt to achieve it and have both fallen massively outside their promises for FFP for the past 3-4 years at least.
 
I would not be surprised if, say Spurs do finish 5th, that they challenge UEFA for letting clubs with this debt get into the Champions League. Everyone knows how lucrative it is, so a couple of million in legal fees is something I'd expect Levy and Joe Lewis to do for the sake of £30m+.

Hell, it could even be the case that say Everton are there with Spurs that they jump in too if there's belief City are falling foul as well. I'm not sure United would though, I doubt they want their accounts scrutinised in open court...

Utd are on the stock market, they have the most complete and up to date records of probably any team in the league.

http://ir.manutd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=133303&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1899266&highlight=

For instance the Liverpool numbers being talked about are the 2013 numbers. Due to being on the stock market Utd are basically liable to release public financial documents bang up to date. Exceptionally few clubs release numbers for the previous quarter right after it's finished. Usually speaking around xmas you find out most teams previous years results, ffp has somewhat sped this up as it was often a lot longer.

In terms of challenges afaik the current situation is that clubs can look to bargain/appeal with Uefa over their punishment, and clubs can challenge any decision made then, I don't know if they can make a legal challenge earlier in the stage or if a club hasn't been punished to begin with.

City's FFP attempt is dodgy as ****, Chelsea are making a big stink but will likely have their own dodgy crap in it.

Debt isn't particularly relevant to FFP, a club can have 300mil cash in the bank, spend 50mil beyond their income for three years and have aggregate losses of 150mil over 3 seasons, still have 150mil in the bank, have zero debt and have problems with FFP. Or a club can be 600million in debt, make a 10mil profit every year after paying off interest on the debt and not have any trouble with FFP.
 
Ahh cheers DM! Not got time to read all the release now but I'm assuming it says everything is in order!

I imagine once the financial year end comes along and the season has ended that if Spurs haven't broken into the CL again though that they can challenge UEFA over it's decision to admit clubs above them if they are falling foul of the FFP rules. I'm not sure whether that claim would have to be made in a European Court, UK court or the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but I'm sure we can all agree that if say Liverpool or City are twenty odd million off the limit of debt then those clubs on the fringes of the CL places would have a good reason to get their lawyers together.

As for what Dean has posted above, I think that shot is from the Times judging by the BBC sports gossip column. In regard to that, how can it matter whether you were in the champions league last season or not? I would have thought FFP would apply all clubs irrespective of whether or not they were in it last season as the idea is to prevent clubs buying their way into the champions league and in the process incurring substantial amounts of debt.
 
Why do you keep mentioning debt? FFP is about profit and loss and due to the way it's calculated, with so many expenses not included very few clubs will fail to meet the requirements.

FFP is a cop out by UEFA. When they initially discussed financial controls it was to do with the amount of debt in football but the big clubs didn't give a **** about that and were more concerned about the City's, Chelsea's of this world making it more expensive for them to retain their dominance and FFP was born.
 
Ok say they all make losses, not profit, and are on the fringes of the champions league places I'm sure those clubs will make a challenge.

You know what I meant though.
 
They will and it was reported that Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs were already planning to challenge City's inclusion. As things stand City look very likely to meet FFP but they've done it using every trick in the book; massive commercial deals, nearly all from the UAE, selling intellectual property (whatever that consists of) to their US football team etc.
 
The main issue is who they are selling the info/ip to.

When it was announced my immediate thought was Uefa wanting to milk the sugar daddies with fines, and teams like City and Chelsea magically getting huge income from people who happy to be best friends of the owner from various russian/middle eastern countries. My opinion has not changed.

The fact that Uefa have finally after YEARS of never saying what or how anyone would be punished has finally said along the lines of lots of small punishments, some severe ones at the end of the scale which can be appealed/negotiated...... it screams of Uefa threatening City with exclusion, an appeal and they agreed on a HUGE fine and a new summer house in the Maldives for Platini.......... :(

FFP by almost every way its set up doesn't stop sugar daddies or running at a loss, it just prevents new teams doing it and locks in the pretty much current top 5-6 in a way that getting a new team through is going to be even harder than what is almost impossible now.
 
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