Free will
- Thread starter neocon
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Why are questions of determinism misplaced with regards to this topic?
Do you mean that, even if we proved that consciousness was deterministic (and thus there was no true free will), we would still act as if we had free will so the question is moot?
Secondly, why do you believe the universe isn't deterministic?
Are you basing that on the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics and our lack of a unified theory to combine QM and general relativity?
Soldato
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How do you know
i can't believe I willingly signed up for this ****
You mean sperm have free will?
I don't think it matters either way.
Sort of but not quite - like I can see why some might frame it that way but personally I'd go slightly further than that, just because some outside observer could in theory predict in advance that we'd make a given choice under some circumstances doesn't really negate free will for us IMO. It might be that with perfect information someone could theoretically predict the choices we'll make but so what... I mean I guess it depends on how we define free will tbh... does it require some magical property that can't quite be defined? We're conscious, sentient beings, right? Though we don't fully understand consciousness. We still make choices whether those choices can be predicted or not. I don't think the presence or absence of some randomness from the perspective of an observer makes much difference re: free will from our perspective.
Whether some theoretical observer with perfect information can predict we'd do X with absolute certainty given some conditions or whether they can predict we'd do x with p=0.7 (for the sake of argument) doesn't really change anything for us.
Essentially yeah, there are things that we can't currently give any deterministic explanation for. I'm not saying I necessarily believe it is for sure, just my current prior is that it isn't.
I guess it kind of fits the simulation thing for people who are into that - if you've got certain things that don't need to be given a state until they're observed then your super alien who built the simulation can save on memory etc.... sort of like a computer game where not everything in a world is drawn in advance. Likewise, if you've got a chunk of uranium atoms say, you just need to know that some number of them will randomly decay at some point in time, that can be done in real-time, doesn't need to be completely determined which will go off when etc...
Soldato
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My wife tells me to say "no".
Man of Honour
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If you are able to make a choice and do things whether right or wrong then you have Freewill.
So, have we?
Man of Honour
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I've just decided to have a chicken sandwich and reply to this so 100%
I think you may be thinking of something else.
Which came first?
Man of Honour
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The decision to have the chicken sandwich but when I got in the kitchen I then had the freewill to choose sausages instead.
and I know what you meant
I guess it depends whether you're interested in the philosophical question itself (does free will exist) or the practical question (does it even matter).
If we're talking about the philosophical argument then determinism is fundamental to the question. If our conscious state is just an 'observer' experiencing thoughts that are the result of deterministic reactions in our brain, then our perception of free will is just an illusion.
If you try meditating for a bit, you soon discover that you have very little control over the thoughts that appear in your minds-eye. And, as soon as you try to command those thoughts, you start to question whether it's your conscious self that has control of those thoughts about the thoughts, or if it's your sub-conscious self having those thoughts that you are merely observing. Some people find it very freeing and others find it terrifying — It's quite easy to have an existential crisis if you think about it for too long.
That being said, on a practical level, it doesn't (and probably can never) affect how we actually live our lives. So in that sense, I can see the argument for saying it doesn't really matter. Of course, then you get into "if we live our lives as if we possess free will even if it's illusory, we ipso facto have free will" and you can go around in circles for days.
I think we're coming at this from opposite ends — you're talking about whether an outside observer could predict our actions ahead of when we experience the decision to take that action.
I'm more interested in whether the source of that action comes from our conscious self or whether the conscious self is merely along for the ride and the decisions we think we're making 'of our own free will' are actually the result of something else.
But on the question of "does it matter if an outside observer can predict our actions ahead of when we experience the decision to take that action" — it matters if the outside observer is able to do something with that information. If they know what we're going to do before we do, they can make all sorts of decisions that could affect us positively or negatively.
It might not make a difference to us as conscious decision makers but it could make a difference to us more generally. Of course, if the universe is deterministic, then any action the 3rd party takes for/against us was always going to happen anyway, so there's not much we can do about it.
Yeah, that's fair enough. Ultimately we just don't know enough about the quantum world and it's relation to the 'real' world yet, especially how that relates to brain function. I'd love to be around when we finally figure out a Unified Theory but I'm not holding out much hope that it will be achieved in my lifetime.
I disagree, I'm talking about the philosophical argument not simply whether it matters or not.
I think we're coming at this from opposite ends — you're talking about whether an outside observer could predict our actions ahead of when we experience the decision to take that action.
I'm more interested in whether the source of that action comes from our conscious self or whether the conscious self is merely along for the ride and the decisions we think we're making 'of our own free will' are actually the result of something else.
But on the question of "does it matter if an outside observer can predict our actions ahead of when we experience the decision to take that action" — it matters if the outside observer is able to do something with that information. If they know what we're going to do before we do, they can make all sorts of decisions that could affect us positively or negatively.
It might not make a difference to us as conscious decision makers but it could make a difference to us more generally. Of course, if the universe is deterministic, then any action the 3rd party takes for/against us was always going to happen anyway, so there's not much we can do about it.
The outside observer here isn't necessarily even possible - I'm just highlighting that determinism or non-determinism doesn't really make any difference here IMO, that some observer, outside our universe, could in theory predict what we'd do with absolute certainty doesn't seem relevant to me... I'm not sure they could necessarily meddle as that would then involve interacting with a part of our universe and they don't necessarily have perfect information re: whatever universe they exist in... but that is all a bit moot, none of this depends on the existence of any observer.
Yeah, that's fair enough. Ultimately we just don't know enough about the quantum world and it's relation to the 'real' world yet, especially how that relates to brain function. I'd love to be around when we finally figure out a Unified Theory but I'm not holding out much hope that it will be achieved in my lifetime.[/QUOTE]
Then we’ll have to agree to disagree. I can’t see how it isn’t fundamental to the philosophical question.
If all of our thoughts, all of our decisions, are made by the cause and effect of physical reactions within parts of our brain, and the couscous-self is merely an observer, then free will is illusionary.
Unless you include those chemical reactions that make up the sub/unconscious as part of the ‘self’, but then we’re going down an even deeper philosophical rabbit hole.
Why does the observer have to be in some parallel universe?
I don’t know if you’ve seen the TV series DEVS but the basic premise is a quantum computer that sees the future by calculating causality. Ok, it’s Sci-Fi but it’s not necessarily impossible.
We already have experiments that show the brain making decisions milliseconds to seconds before the conscious self is aware.
Imagine playing a game of chess against an opponent who knows what move you’re going to make before you do. That’s a mundane and benign example, expand that further and the implications could be huge.
Well, what else is your conscious self - magic? Surely yes, your conscious self is surely the result of those "moving parts"... Have you ever had an operation under general anesthetic - what happened to your conscious self during that time?
Because there are some rather obvious flaws with it being present within the universe - how is it able to observe given the vast distances involved, what resources would be required to observe and track every bit of matter in the universe? The infinite recursion problem of it having to observe/model and predict itself as it is also a part of the universe it is observing and predicting.
This is all rather moot though - for the purpose of this discussion it isn't important that such an observer exists, it was, again, a comment on determinism.
General anaesthetic isn’t the best analogy because you’re incapacitated. A better example would be if you’re blackout drunk. Your unconscious is in the driving seat and the conscious self has no control or recall. Do you still have free will when the conscious self has checked out?
As you said yourself, the simulation doesn’t have to render the entire universe. If a program is going to predict my next five chess moves, it doesn’t need to know what the subatomic particles are doing in a supernova a billion light years away.
Note that I’m not arguing for determinism, I’m simply saying that the question of determinism (either way) is important to the question of free will.
It doesn't really matter how you're unconscious tbh.. but the point is just that you're not. I don't see how you have any free will when you're not conscious - whether that is because you're out for a bit under general anesthetic or because you've blacked out due to excessive alcohol.
Not strictly true but for the sake of argument sure, I'm not sure what some short-term, finite prediction has to do with much here though?
I disagree - I don't see why it is relevant.
If for the sake of argument the universe isn't predictable (in theory) - does that necessarily need to change anything here? I guess the processes your brain might still be deterministic within a universe that isn't.. but supposing we introduce some randomness into the processes in your brain - a given choice that you/your brain is going to make can't be determined even with perfect knowledge... if that is just down to randomness then so what? Beyond that you could get into "magic" type arguments - like there being some ill-defined "soul" perhaps and be sure to make the description of it vague, not falsifiable etc..
Ok, good. So, you’re blackout drunk and have no free will at the time but your brain is still making decisions and actions on your behalf. So if the conscious self is just awareness of the decisions and actions that the subconscious is making anyway, consciousness doesn’t equate to free will.
If the predictions are 100% accurate based on deterministic analysis, then it suggests I have no agency to do anything different, and hence no free will.
It comes back to the point that we simply don’t know enough about our brain activity yet to say one way or another. It doesn’t have to be ‘magic’ or a ‘soul’ but if there is some element of unpredictability then it allows for the potential for free will, even if we don’t understand the mechanisms behind it yet.