Fuel
- Thread starter The1nonly1
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Soldato
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- 30 Oct 2008
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Is there any truth in getting more miles out of branded fuel?
Reason I ask is last month we drove to Middlesbrough and back, filled up at Sainsbury's.
On the way home we had to stop and get some more diesel, did the same trip last weekend and filled up at Esso, managed to get home with over 100 miles of diesel still left.
Now there's a million other factors that I'm sure will also count towards how much fuel we used, traffic weather etc, but I'm curious as to whether you would genuinely get better mileage / performance paying the few pence extra per litre for branded fuel over whatever the supermarkets stock?
Reason I ask is last month we drove to Middlesbrough and back, filled up at Sainsbury's.
On the way home we had to stop and get some more diesel, did the same trip last weekend and filled up at Esso, managed to get home with over 100 miles of diesel still left.
Now there's a million other factors that I'm sure will also count towards how much fuel we used, traffic weather etc, but I'm curious as to whether you would genuinely get better mileage / performance paying the few pence extra per litre for branded fuel over whatever the supermarkets stock?
Nope.
All comes from the same place. Some places add some different stuff to it, but nothing thats going to do much MPG wise.
Hi there
Petrol: On most factory cars the ECU either leaves the factory designed to run on a specific RON, so most UK/EU cars will be designed for RON 95 and filling with higher RON fuel will likely yield no gains. So then its down to if you believe the cleaning properties certain fuels promote, a few people I know who tear down engines for race cars and rebuilding road cars have said an engine is generally cleaner inside if ran on a good fuel like Vpower, but there is really no proof. I'd say for your average shopping kart type car, just stick the cheapest petrol in you can find. If on the other hands its an older but average car maybe using good fuel could help with reliability, keep injectors, filters and engine components clean can only help aid lifespan.
On performance vehicles, particular turbocharged, modern ECU's have adaptive fuel tables, so the manufacturer may state a minimum of 95 RON, but recommends 98, even when this is not the case an adaptive ECU having ran through 2-3 tanks of higher RON fuel has better knock resistance and as such may advance the timing a degree or two further over regular cheaper fuel, resulting in power gains.
For example I did some datalogging on my Mustang, it uses a knock sensor to determine spark advance or retard. Others who have datalogged their car on regular RON 95 fuel tend to achieve 23-24 spark advance at full throttle and can see upto 4 degrees knock retard on a cheaper fuel. When your ECU pulls spark/timing/advance or whatever you wish to call it power/torque is lost.
Using a better quality, but more importantly higher RON fuel improves your knock resistance, for instance my car WOT on Vpower on the stock Ford map would maintain a healthy 24-25 degrees spark and there was never any Knock retard present, the sensors remained at 0.00, unless of course I had a false knock event as the knock sensors are over-sensitive so for instance a pot hole or a aggressive gear change can set a knock sensor of for a millisecond.
What my car was also doing on Vpower even on the stock map was adding a lot more timing at partial throttle loads due to the knock sensor commanding more timing due to the better knock resistance of Vpower.
If your car is turbocharged even a factory car, running higher RON fuel can give even great gains in power, some manufacturers even claim the horsepower figures are based on 98 RON and recommend it, fill with lower quality fuel and your power reduces.
Now my car is tuned, I opted for Octane 92-94 base tune fuel table wise, though the tune can actually take advantage of as high as Octane 102 if I was ever to fill with race fuel. The tuners in USA are very switched on because in the USA they have way more options on fuels than we do, you can get Octane 87, 91, 93 and even 94, plus you then have E85 widely available, thats corn crop feed and they also love their race fuels over there.
My car's tune is now designed on good fuel, running on Vpower now see's a sustained 27 degrees spark advance at WOT, with zero spark retard. If I fill with lesser quality fuel the knock sensor will go off and pull that timing out reducing power, it is that simple.
In short if I could get RON 102 here in the UK, I would my car could take advantage now its tuned, if I could get E85 I most definitely would as the gains on that fuel are superb, I'd typically see around another 20BHP and 30lb/ft from E85 as E85 has an equivalent Octane rating I believe of either 102 or 106, cannot remember for sure.
If your chasing horsepowers, best performance, want the best for your engine and fuel system and do not mind the extra pennies per litre then yes a good fuel is worth it on the basis you have a car that can take advantage of that better quality fuel and then its down to if you can notice the difference. Plus you get that warm fuzzy feeling Fox describes!
Some people are very sensitive to their cars, they can pick up minute changes in the way it drives and performs, for example a tyre being a few PSI less than the others, or the difference between good fuel and bad, whereas other people cannot notice a thing, I've known people driving around 10-15psi tyre and never noticed until pointed out to them their car feels a bit odd or actually spotting it visually. Everyone is different, an F1 driver has the most sensitive butt dyno on the plant.
On to the Vpower diesel and fancy diesels, well I really have no idea there, I have no idea how diesel fuels work and if they have different octane, ron or whatever ratings and if a performance diesel can take advantage, but to my knowledge diesel does not go with a bang like petrol so I doubt there is any performance gains on offer.
So the cleaning additives in diesel, do they offer anything, again I could not comment, all I will say when I had my 306HDI all those years ago, its diesel engine was the usual tractor affair noise wise, I started filling it with Vpower diesel and two things happened, the engine quietened down almost instantly from having Vpower in the tank and over a few tank fulls economy marginally improved. Whether or not making a diesel engine quieter counts as a good thing or not though I do not know.
Petrol: On most factory cars the ECU either leaves the factory designed to run on a specific RON, so most UK/EU cars will be designed for RON 95 and filling with higher RON fuel will likely yield no gains. So then its down to if you believe the cleaning properties certain fuels promote, a few people I know who tear down engines for race cars and rebuilding road cars have said an engine is generally cleaner inside if ran on a good fuel like Vpower, but there is really no proof. I'd say for your average shopping kart type car, just stick the cheapest petrol in you can find. If on the other hands its an older but average car maybe using good fuel could help with reliability, keep injectors, filters and engine components clean can only help aid lifespan.
On performance vehicles, particular turbocharged, modern ECU's have adaptive fuel tables, so the manufacturer may state a minimum of 95 RON, but recommends 98, even when this is not the case an adaptive ECU having ran through 2-3 tanks of higher RON fuel has better knock resistance and as such may advance the timing a degree or two further over regular cheaper fuel, resulting in power gains.
For example I did some datalogging on my Mustang, it uses a knock sensor to determine spark advance or retard. Others who have datalogged their car on regular RON 95 fuel tend to achieve 23-24 spark advance at full throttle and can see upto 4 degrees knock retard on a cheaper fuel. When your ECU pulls spark/timing/advance or whatever you wish to call it power/torque is lost.
Using a better quality, but more importantly higher RON fuel improves your knock resistance, for instance my car WOT on Vpower on the stock Ford map would maintain a healthy 24-25 degrees spark and there was never any Knock retard present, the sensors remained at 0.00, unless of course I had a false knock event as the knock sensors are over-sensitive so for instance a pot hole or a aggressive gear change can set a knock sensor of for a millisecond.
What my car was also doing on Vpower even on the stock map was adding a lot more timing at partial throttle loads due to the knock sensor commanding more timing due to the better knock resistance of Vpower.
If your car is turbocharged even a factory car, running higher RON fuel can give even great gains in power, some manufacturers even claim the horsepower figures are based on 98 RON and recommend it, fill with lower quality fuel and your power reduces.
Now my car is tuned, I opted for Octane 92-94 base tune fuel table wise, though the tune can actually take advantage of as high as Octane 102 if I was ever to fill with race fuel. The tuners in USA are very switched on because in the USA they have way more options on fuels than we do, you can get Octane 87, 91, 93 and even 94, plus you then have E85 widely available, thats corn crop feed and they also love their race fuels over there.
My car's tune is now designed on good fuel, running on Vpower now see's a sustained 27 degrees spark advance at WOT, with zero spark retard. If I fill with lesser quality fuel the knock sensor will go off and pull that timing out reducing power, it is that simple.
In short if I could get RON 102 here in the UK, I would my car could take advantage now its tuned, if I could get E85 I most definitely would as the gains on that fuel are superb, I'd typically see around another 20BHP and 30lb/ft from E85 as E85 has an equivalent Octane rating I believe of either 102 or 106, cannot remember for sure.
If your chasing horsepowers, best performance, want the best for your engine and fuel system and do not mind the extra pennies per litre then yes a good fuel is worth it on the basis you have a car that can take advantage of that better quality fuel and then its down to if you can notice the difference. Plus you get that warm fuzzy feeling Fox describes!
Some people are very sensitive to their cars, they can pick up minute changes in the way it drives and performs, for example a tyre being a few PSI less than the others, or the difference between good fuel and bad, whereas other people cannot notice a thing, I've known people driving around 10-15psi tyre and never noticed until pointed out to them their car feels a bit odd or actually spotting it visually. Everyone is different, an F1 driver has the most sensitive butt dyno on the plant.
On to the Vpower diesel and fancy diesels, well I really have no idea there, I have no idea how diesel fuels work and if they have different octane, ron or whatever ratings and if a performance diesel can take advantage, but to my knowledge diesel does not go with a bang like petrol so I doubt there is any performance gains on offer.
So the cleaning additives in diesel, do they offer anything, again I could not comment, all I will say when I had my 306HDI all those years ago, its diesel engine was the usual tractor affair noise wise, I started filling it with Vpower diesel and two things happened, the engine quietened down almost instantly from having Vpower in the tank and over a few tank fulls economy marginally improved. Whether or not making a diesel engine quieter counts as a good thing or not though I do not know.
[TW]Fox;30067520 said:What is the value of Vpower in a car designed and built for a market where even a Premium fuel is sometimes 91 at most 93 if you're lucky?
Is it just for that warm and fuzzy feeling you get holding the Super Duper Fuel nozzle?
[TW]Fox;30067572 said:Must be an absolute nightmare running a big power Mustang in the USA...
I thought you knew better. But I guess you were playing the DA then?
[TW]Fox;30068250 said:Why do people do it - 10p a litre more for nothing
I did a few tests when I had the 530d. And tried 2-3 tanks on the trot of each super diesel I could find locally. In short, there was pretty much zero difference in fuel economy between them, or them and regular diesel. Almost (see below).
I also did the above test with regular diesel. Esso seemed to get me the best fuel economy. But it was marginal over and above what I would get from Shell or Morrisons.
However, I did notice a distinct drop in economy when using Asda or Tesco diesel. Maybe somewhere in the region of 30-50 miles per tank less.
As a result, I generally fill up at Morrisons in the diesel, and V-Power in the GTI. I do use a shot of Redex every 10 or so tanks though. Just because I have some here, and it "might" do something.
I also occasionally put a shot of 2-stroke oil in the tank too. That does seem to make the engine run smoother, and reduces the soot out the back. So worthwhile doing in my experience. It was more noticable on the oid Passat, but works well on the Alhambra too. Didn't do it on the 5 series though.
Probably depends on the car. I don't think it makes any difference to my simple diesel engine. Maybe its slightly quieter on Ultimate Diesel, but I doubt it. And if it was I didn't notice and it wasn't 'beneficial' enough for me to bother putting a second load in.
I run it on whatever diesel is the cheapest. Usually random supermarket stuff.
I run it on whatever diesel is the cheapest. Usually random supermarket stuff.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2004
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- Rutland
Not noticed anything on my 530D with a Vpower or BP Ultimate. Just stick to standard now.
Yep. This was my experience also. So never bothered with expensive diesel. Plus it is a full 10ppl more, compared to fancy petrol, which isn't as much of a difference, usually.
I dont mean to be "that guy" but you dont know how the fuel distribution network for single grade (EN590 is standard grade diesel) works do you
Follow the tankers back to where they come from, you'll see that what you are experiencing is placebo.I hate seeing the fuel light coming on, makes me panic like crazy. I usually keep the tank about half full unless I know I'm off on a long trip, then I brim it. Hate to get caught out on a motorway getting stung at a service station.
You have a fair distance left in most cars. All of mine have had at east 60 miles least after the light comes on.
Associate
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- 6 May 2016
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- 693
I brim it and then wait until there's about a quarter left before heading to a petrol station.
I'm sure there would be a good few miles once the light come's on, however, I'm not prepared to test this.
I'm sure there would be a good few miles once the light come's on, however, I'm not prepared to test this.
I dont mean to be "that guy" but you dont know how the fuel distribution network for single grade (EN590 is standard grade diesel) works do you
I can only tell from experience. I consistently get less miles per tank when using Asda or Tesco fuels. That is not placebo, that is backed up with data. Granted, there could be differences in driving conditions, but I generally get the same miles out of every tank, with minor fluctuations of 10-15 miles. So a 30+ mile fluctuation, consistently over several tanks, tells me something.
Sure, I get it that all the fuel comes from the same refinery. But they all have their own additives on top of that base fuel too.
Soldato
- Joined
- 11 Sep 2013
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- 12,668
Looking around ze web, users and review sites alike report cleaner (but still not spotless) engines, with some showing a few more MPG and some others showing slightly nore responsive engines.[TW]Fox;30068250 said:Why do people do it - 10p a litre more for nothing
I don't have a diesel myself yet, but I always put the fancy petrol in because they're older vehicles and cheap stuff causes problems with the rubber parts.