Gender equality debate

Man of Honour
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The problem is if you try and say all lives matter, or white lives matter too, they'll call you a far-right, alt-right, racist, nazi, etc.

Well in those circumstances it’s sort of a ‘double foul’. By saying ‘all lives matter’ in response to somebody campaigning that ‘black lives matter’, you have missed the point - the campaign is not about ALL people, it’s about black people and the issues they specially (or at least typically) face, purportedly. Also, saying ‘black lives matter’ is not saying ‘only black lives matter’.

By comparison, if you were campaigning to increase funding for testicular cancer and I then criticised you by saying “we should be increasing funding for ALL cancers”, you’d likely be a bit miffed (and rightly so) and you’d also be right for thinking I was being a bit of a jerk.

As for being called ‘alt right / nazi’ or whatever in response for making a misguided comment of ‘all lives matter’ (in response to black lives matter) that’s not a necessarily fair insult but, still, it stems from a misguided and overzealous understanding of what ‘black lives matter’ is supposed to be about, which infers a misunderstanding or at worse a disregard for the actual issues at hand.

Black lives matter is just like feminism in that it isn't about the rights of black people, it's about taking power and wealth for their supporters.
Hmm that’s a bit unfair... pretty sure it’s in response to systemic racism but ho hum.
 
Soldato
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Maybe, just maybe, females are more suited to being CEOs than manual labourers?

Eh? Do you not see the absurdity of your statement? Are you suggesting that there are differences in gender? That would be highly offensive to feminists the world over, even though it is a biological fact.

How do you not see the obvious hypocrisy in demanding equality in one area, based on falsehoods no less, whilst completely ignoring other areas because it doesn't suit (no power to be gained)?
 
Soldato
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Sounds like a big farce.

If you want to change something in society you have to involve everyone. 100 women talking among themselves aren't going to change the mind of 1 man. Because, well, he's not there so why would he give a **** what they decide.

Also try getting 100 women to all get along lol. I'm sure that's where the phrase "herding cats" comes from.
 
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Soldato
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Maybe, just maybe, females are more suited to being CEOs than manual labourers?
If that were the case, they'd be demonstrably better at it and would already own the world, surely?

For...providing evidence you requested?
Yep.
I can only assume you're a woman seeking gender equality, or something... :p

the campaign is not about ALL people, it’s about black people and the issues they specially (or at least typically) face, purportedly. Also, saying ‘black lives matter’ is not saying ‘only black lives matter’.
Either it's all-inclusive, or it's not.
If it's not, that's fine... but if not, why do they then pretend it's about issues that all non-whites in general supposedly face, when by its very name it is specifically addressing black lives? Why not take a more general and less divisive naming convention?

By comparison, if you were campaigning to increase funding for testicular cancer and I then criticised you by saying “we should be increasing funding for ALL cancers”, you’d likely be a bit miffed (and rightly so) and you’d also be right for thinking I was being a bit of a jerk.
Possibly a bad analogy, but I don't see that as being a jerk at all... It makes perfect sense to me.

Hmm that’s a bit unfair... pretty sure it’s in response to systemic racism but ho hum.
Then why isn't it called something more sensible and explanatory then, like the Campaign Against Systemic Racism?
 
Soldato
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There's not enough female CEO's in the world...

... there's also a great disparity in manual labour, mining, the armed forces, landscaping, waste disposal, construction, <insert low level job here>... but you won't hear feminists talking about that.

That's discrimination against men, surely? Women more suited to being CEOs than men? Men more suited to being manual labourers than women?

Where's the equality if you're now assigning jobs based on gender... Oh wait, equality doesn't matter at the lower end of the pay spectrum, does it?

So basically women must be advantaged in the jobs women want to take up, in the jobs women don't want to take up the men can fill those... Nice.

I'd say it's more about barriers to entry — technically there's little stopping women from going into the low-level jobs mentioned (except personal choice).

For a woman to get to Board or CEO level, she has to go through various stages of career development and promotion, each of which is currently less likely to be successful than if she were male.

In Norway, where they have had quotas for the last 10 years, they’ve found that women have to be more qualified than their equivalent male counterpart to get the same job.

It comes back to equality of opportunity (or the lack thereof).
 
Caporegime
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It comes back to equality of opportunity (or the lack thereof).
But there's the rub. We're determining whether "equality of opportunity" exists purely by looking at outcomes.

The "pay gap" >0 ergo opportunity isn't equal.

And that's the circle we're all going round, and round, and round...

Talking about opportunity but measuring outcomes (only).

And when we get to 50/50 (or beyond) people will say we have achieved equal opportunity... even if the reality is women are being selected for and given better opportunities - all to brute force the outcome we (collectively) want.
 
Don
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https://www.economist.com/news/busi...taforwomenoncorporateboardstheoldgirlsnetwork

Talking of Norway, The Economist had an article this week about them. 10 years on from the introduction of quotas the outcome has largely been the establishment of a "old girls" network of a few women sitting on multiple boards at a rate substantially higher than those of men. Corporate performance hasn't improved (this is an oft quoted urban myth that more women on boards greatly increases company performance - there's no real evidence to this at all). All in all, it's made no real change to the lives of ordinary women in the same way that male heavy boards doesn't really have any impact on your typical man in terms of opportunities.
 
Man of Honour
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@ttaskmaster I think you are a bit unduly hung up on the name of it. Yes, it would perhaps be better to call it something more all inclusive but I suppose that doesn’t reflect the roots of the group. As for raising funds, yes, it is perfectly sensible to say that all funding needs increasing, but it’s HOW you say it.

“Let’s raise funds for testicular cancer”
“Sounds good - all cancer funding is too low”
“Yes I agree”

“Let’s raise funds for testicular cancer”
“Shouldn’t you be raising funds equally for all cancers? :rolleyes:
:confused:

Same for black lives matter.
 
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“Let’s raise funds for testicular cancer”
“Shouldn’t you be raising funds equally for all cancers? :rolleyes:
:confused:

Same for black lives matter.

Black lives matter is like this though...

BLM> "Let's raise funds for testicular cancer"
Me> "What about lung cancer?"
BLM> "I hope you die of lung cancer."
 
Soldato
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How so?
Why do they need extra quals?
I can’t remember if it was on The World Tonight or something on The World Service, but they had a woman on from Norway who had been analysing the data from the last 10 years - many of her findings are covered in the Exonomist article @Jokester posted.

Something she mentioned was that for any equivalent post, the female candidates are fairly consistently more qualified than a male in the same position - suggesting that women have to work harder/be more qualified to achieve the same outcome.

However, part of this may be due to women self-selecting. My wife used to be in recruitment before going into teaching. It’s well known that women will (usually) only apply for jobs they are qualified or over-qualified for. Whereas men are more likely to apply for jobs they aren’t 100% qualified for and then figure it out “on the job”.
 
Soldato
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In Norway, where they have had quotas for the last 10 years, they’ve found that women have to be more qualified than their equivalent male counterpart to get the same job.

Being a CEO isn't just about qualifications and experience, it's not a box ticking exercise. It's analogous to being a General in a war, it's more to do with mindset and personal attributes than how well you might do a job in theory. Men are on average more obsessive about "things", we're on average more assertive and aggressive, these are probably also the things that help you lead a company. That's not to say no woman can or should be a CEO, but it might mean there are less of them proportionately. I personally don't see a problem with that since you may as well be complaining about inequality amongst millionaire pop singers, there aren't millions of CEOs around, it's a small group of people that aren't representative of the population as a whole.
 
Soldato
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I think you are a bit unduly hung up on the name of it.
They chose the name, not me.
Should have chosen one that better explained how inclusive of all people they are.
While they're at it, they should perhaps update their own website to explain that they're not just about Black people and the systemic racism that Black people suffer... because as it stands, it just says they support Black people. Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum, sure.... but still very Black and very exclusive.
Very little in the way of all-encompassing sentiment, aside from one or two vague sentences buried in the About section.

Yes, it would perhaps be better to call it something more all inclusive but I suppose that doesn’t reflect the roots of the group.
Does it need to, in the first place?
It's institutionalised racism. It's rooted in institutionalism.

Same for black lives matter.
And again, if they agreed, they'd switch to something more inclusive. All Lives, All Cancer, etc...
The Spastic Society changed its name, for example.

It’s well known that women will (usually) only apply for jobs they are qualified or over-qualified for. Whereas men are more likely to apply for jobs they aren’t 100% qualified for and then figure it out “on the job”.
Ah, so they don't have to be..... they just chose to be. Maybe overensuring in order to get the job, but not actually a requirement.
That's like saying you have to be a redhead, just because they all happened to be.
Incidentally, who gave them the jobs? Were any other women involved in the 'decision making process'?
 
Caporegime
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The problem is they actively prevent discussion of men's issues, calling you misogynist etc.

Women should care about the health of their men, and vice versa.

Care to provide some examples of that? So far the only example was an event organised by a group of anti-feminists to complain about feminists.

You really think "they" would actively try and prevent an event to promote funding of male specific cancers for example?
 
Caporegime
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Sexism is a sign of weakness, not a sign of strength.

Agreed. Just like most other "isms". Rather than pulling themselves up they want to keep others down/below them. Or they're worried that they will lose some of the benefits afforded to them at the expense of those others.

Seem to you, maybe, because that's what you expect. Presumably you're projecting your own way of thinking onto your target group. Or maybe you're just making something up on the fly as a distraction.

I assume you've seen the guest list then and know who's going to be there?

And yes, that's what I'd expect, and what I believe the majority understand.

Stating "nope" does not magically create more resources. I have no idea why anyone would seriously claim that it does. Do you really think that it does?

Since the resources are finite and for some reason your Magic Word doesn't create more resources, increasing funding for healthcare for men will decrease funding for something else. Since the funding will come from the healthcare budget, that "something else" will be healthcare for women.

Sorry, what? You argued that competing for funding is "anti-feminist". Have a re-read of what I said and maybe you'll get it this time. I understand there's a finite budget, but arguing for more funding for your cause is not inherently "anti" a competing cause. Arguing against the funding of a cause is "anti" that cause however.

For example putting in a funding request for research on prostate cancer does not mean you don't care about research into breast cancer.

One of the "big" issues we are seeing at the moment is that there seems to be much more organisation and passion for causes that affect women than affect men. Why? Personally I think it's because men, in general, just aren't as bothered about helping themselves, allowing the other causes to have a say. Unfortunately the most vocal "pro male" causes seem to be run by anti feminists, concentrating on anti-feminism, rather than advocating male issues themselves.

That's not to say there aren't some rabid anti male "feminists" around, just that they are in the minority, don't have much say in anything (but love twitter and social media) and would be swamped even more if men got together and created cohesive and organised advocacy/research groups for said male "issues".

Some people don't want sexism. They don't want to define and divide people by sex and advocate everything for the "right" sex only. They don't want to do the very thing that they're objecting to. So the answer to your question is that some people are not sexist hypocrites.

The majority don't, but at the same time there has to be a realisation that sometimes there has to be some division. There are specific issues that affect certain parts of society (women, men, LGBT, BAME etc*), and in those cases they need to be considered individually. Those that ignore this fact are just as bad as those that push for their "section" of society to have more rights than others.

Let's remember here that there's usually a reason that a section of society progresses from complaining with a few words and grumpy people to actually getting off their bums and on the streets (or mortuary tables in extreme examples), running for offices and/or starting advocacy groups. The civil rights movement in the US and Suffragettes in the UK for example...

*Whether that be medical, societal or other reason.
 
Soldato
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Being a CEO isn't just about qualifications and experience, it's not a box ticking exercise.

All very true but the Norway “experiment” isn’t just about CEOs, it’s board members in general. Incidentally, Freakonimics has just done a series of podcasts on CEOs which is really good — including an excellent interview with Indra Nooyi, the CEO of PepsiCo.

Ah, so they don't have to be..... they just chose to be. Maybe overensuring in order to get the job, but not actually a requirement.
That's like saying you have to be a redhead, just because they all happened to be.
Incidentally, who gave them the jobs? Were any other women involved in the 'decision making process'?

"Have to be" was the wrong phrasing in my earlier post, apologies. You're right, there's no requirement within the job spec for them to be more qualified, it's just a fact that they are. Whether it's because the women themselves are self-selecting or whether it's because women with the same qualifications as their male counterparts aren't appointed is harder to ascertain, but it's certainly a pattern that's worth investigating.

Interestingly, the Economist article shows that although Norway's quota has reduced the gender pay gap for those women at board level, there doesn't appear to be any evidence that promoting more women to board level has had many benefits (if any) for the women working in those companies below board level.

Let's remember here that there's usually a reason that a section of society progresses from complaining with a few words and grumpy people to actually getting off their bums and on the streets (or mortuary tables in extreme examples), running for offices and/or starting advocacy groups. The civil rights movement in the US and Suffragettes in the UK for example...

Good post.

I do wonder whether those people complaining about SJWs or feminists or BLM feel that the civil rights movement achieved its purpose and now everyone should just keep quiet…
 
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I do wonder whether those people complaining about SJWs or feminists or BLM feel that the civil rights movement achieved its purpose and now everyone should just keep quiet…
- Yes the civil rights movement achieved its purpose.
- No I'm not saying people should keep quiet, people should campaign for whatever they believe in. I only take issue with them denying other people that same right. E.g. I want men to be able to campaign for men's rights without being called misogynist. I want white men to be able to campaign against 'positive' discrimination without being called sexist, racist, bigot, nazi, etc. Equality, basically.
 
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