Poll: General election voting intentions poll

Voting intentions in the General Election?

  • Alliance Party of Northern Ireland

    Votes: 2 0.3%
  • Conservative

    Votes: 254 41.6%
  • Democratic Unionist Party

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 40 6.5%
  • Labour

    Votes: 83 13.6%
  • Liberal Democrat

    Votes: 31 5.1%
  • Not voting/will spoil ballot

    Votes: 38 6.2%
  • Other party (not named)

    Votes: 4 0.7%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Respect Party

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Scottish National Party

    Votes: 25 4.1%
  • Social Democratic and Labour Party

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 129 21.1%

  • Total voters
    611
  • Poll closed .
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I've already explained, this study is deeply flawed. Migration Watch has dismantled the media headlines using the papers own details:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/1.37

That link is a completely flawed analysis and widely disproved with hideous selective quoting without context, e.g.
" The authors themselves found a fiscal cost to the UK from migrants in the UK of £95 billion between 1995 and 2011".

Entirely misses the relevant details, in that period the entire fiscal budget was negative, both native British and immigrants were a net drain. But guess what, EU immigrants were LESS of a negative contributor than native British. EU immigrants contributed 10% more than British.

And that is ignoring the fact that the immigrants provided labour that would cost £50bn to educate.


Your disgusting link is just the epitome of vile miss-information and prejudice.
 
Foreign aid has absolutely nothing to do with immigration and is entirely irrelevant.
I don't dispute that, I was just pointing out that the effect, although positive, is as thomspon said, less than foreign aid spending.

One of the main reasons why EU immigrants are net contributors because they typically don't have children or their children are already older and so much of the expenses have already been incurred in their home country.

Birth rates for immigrants are now approximately the same as British birth rates, so the costs are equivalent.



I have previously read the original paper in detail, it doesn't detract form what I said. I never take news headlines for granted. There are always factors that aren't accounted, for positive and negative. The best evidence we have is immigration is economically strongly positive, all available evidence indicates such.

I think here you are arguing with other posters in this thread, when I replied to you I was mostly agreeing with your points.

I'd be cautious to say "strongly" positive though.
 
The great thing about insulting Labour voters is that if they're poor you can call them something-for-nothing scroungers and if they're rich you can call them champagne socialists. It's a win-win situation for idiots.

I'm not insulting labour voters so not sure how it's relevant, why did you pick that line of the list where I insulted every party? I assume you're going to vote labour, even so I'd have thought you'd that a thicker skin than even that!
 
I don't dispute that, I was just pointing out that the effect, although positive, is as thomspon said, less than foreign aid spending.



I think here you are arguing with other posters in this thread, when I replied to you I was mostly agreeing with your points.

I'd be cautious to say "strongly" positive though.

Strongly positive may not be the best phrasing, what is evident is that EU immigrants contribute significantly more than the native British, which better accounts for the fact that even when EU immigrant contribution is negative it is less negative than the British workers at the same time period.
 
The most recent OBR forecast suggests an annual 0.02% boost to GDP per capita due to high net migration over the next 5 years. They also say this is because the average age of the population is lowered from the migration rather than migrants per se offering higher output.

Got a link to that figure? I like figures in this thread from respected sources, we need more of them.
 
Got a link to that figure? I like figures in this thread from respected sources, we need more of them.

Here, see the executive summary page 9. http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/economic-fiscal-outlook-march-2015/. It states a 0.1% GDP per boost over the next 5 years due to high migration after pop rise taken into account. So 0.02% annualised growth rate (although lower if you use compound growth).

This is the same source which the Guardian used on their front page a few weeks ago (although they used the 0.6% GDP boost as their headline which I think was a bit misleading as 0.5% of that is purely from population rise).
 
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Thanks. That's for GDP isn't it? Not per capita as you wrote above. I think you mean 0.02%, not 0.2% (but this is just a rough estimate anyway).

Also it's important to know what the difference is between the high and low migration scenarios, because the figure is for a 0.6% increase in GDP from switching scenarios. I found this link which suggests the difference is whether it's net 105K or 165K a year by 2019. That suggests to me that (major back of the envelope mode!) 60k immigrants a year ~ 0.6% GDP increase over the duration, the point being the total increase in GDP from immigration is several times that. All this points to though is that more people = more output, which isn't a shock.

More interesting to know how the GDP per capita will change, as this tells us how productive these immigrants are. 60k per year is about a 3.7% population increase over 4 years, so compared to 0.6% increase in GDP would suggest a decrease in GDP per capita. But this is all very rough.

Edit: D.P. makes a good point below, the treasury benefits most.
 
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The most recent OBR forecast suggests an annual 0.02% boost to GDP per capita due to high net migration over the next 5 years. They also say this is because the average age of the population is lowered from the migration rather than migrants per se offering higher output.

I said the economic case was weak. The OBR (widely respected) agrees with me.

I welcome positive arguments for high net migration (fairness, diversity, so we can move easily abroad), but just don't see the economic argument standing up.


No one has claimed that migrants offer a higher output, is exactly because of their demographics which makes them net contributors.

They are raised as children in a foreign country at their expense.
They are educated in a foreign country at their expense.
They come to Britain as productive workers for which we haven't spent a single penny on developing.
They are not likely to be old, and therefore do not have a state pension and do have less illness and thus reduced health costs.
Therefore, their cost in benefits is significantly reduced compared to a British worker which the government had to pay all the way up until they started paying taxes in the world as a productive adult. That is what positive articles are indicating - significantly reduced benefits cost.




Examining changes to absolute GDP completely ignores facts such as the net cost of developing that workforce. The ability not to pay significant money in educating a child or paying a pensioner is not a contribution to the GDP directly but a huge saving in cost. Migration form 1995-2011 has saved 50bn pounds in educating the equivalent workforce, so Britain is 50bn richer regardless of additional GDP increases.

The economic case for EU migrants is very strong, they are net contributors compared to a net loss.



When it is said that migrants are net contributors that refers to profit - cost, not profit alone.
For example migrants since 200 have saved UK tax payer 8.5Bn in tax for fixed services such as defense
 
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I think you mean 0.02%, not 0.2% (but this is just a rough estimate anyway).

Yes, well spotted!

More interesting to know how the GDP per capita will change, as this tells us how productive these immigrants are. 60k per year is about a 3.7% population increase over 4 years, so compared to 0.6% increase in GDP would suggest a decrease in GDP per capita. But this is all very rough.

Well I was confused by that as well - I did the same calculation. But confusingly the OBR report said that 0.1% was after the population increase had been taken into effect (maybe I'm reading it wrong) which was why I was assuming it was an effective per capita increase. The Guardian also state a small per capita increase.
 
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DP I think your argument is logically flawed.

You are saying that because we don't have to pay the training of migrants, that has saved the UK money, but that does not make sense. It is like saying if you buy a second car you don't need, which is 50% off, you have saved 50%!

You have to show a per capita benefit from the extra car for that argument to work! If there is a per capita benefit to having more people, then yes, it does make sense if you can get those people for cheaper, but you have to show the per capita benefit in the first place.
 
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