German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

[Cavallino]

B) no other team has broken team orders. (well they have but it's unprovable)

And yet the media and the FIA have brought those teams up about it, but didnt follow through despite the evidence infront of them.

Also how have the FIA proven that Ferrari have implemented team orders?(Compared to say Austria 2002).
Smedleys appology can be interpreted in anyway. In no shape or form has Ferrari forced Massa to move over. Its a thin argument if this went to a court case.

 

[Cavallino]

2002 it was not illegal. If guilty I expect a much larger fine and wcc points striped, I can't see a ban. If they are lucky they might get away with it as no "order" was given, but so obvious and telemetry.

So if it was not illegal in 2002, why were they penalised for it? Surely that means they can do it?Why were there boos for them? Why were they finned $1m?

 

[Glaucus]

I'd say they will fine them or remove them from the constructors which won't bother them because they won't win it.

Do you even think?
Of course they will care, last team in the pits next year or at least almost at the back, no money, problems with sponsors and so on.

 

[Glaucus]

So if it was not illegal in 2002, why were they penalised for it? Surely that means they can do it?Why were there boos for them? Why were they finned $1m?

Iirc they where fined for bringing the sport into disrepute.

 

[Glaucus]

And yet the media and the FIA have brought those teams up about it, but didnt follow through despite the evidence infront of them.

.

Like who?

 

[Cavallino]

Iirc they where fined for bringing the sport into disrepute.

Ah is that so? Didnt know. Cheers.
Is that the International FIA sporting code or something?

Like who?

There were a few examples, but let me dig them out and I will get back to you later today bud.

 

[The Running Man]

No, you do not have to get out of the way, if Alonso was really that much faster he would have overtaken Massa anyway, especially as he is a teammate and will not close the door if Alonso would make a move.

if you watch F1 you will know that isnt always the case as being 2/10 quicker than the guy in front doesnt mean you can overtake...but when he did get past he did pull away slowly

and you dont need the drivers fighting for the positon when it could end up all arms and legs...that does not benefit either driver OR the team.

 

[Goksly]

So if it was not illegal in 2002, why were they penalised for it? Surely that means they can do it?Why were there boos for them? Why were they finned $1m?

they were fined cos schumy put rubens on the top step, breaking protocol, not for the overtake.

 

[Cavallino]

they were fined cos schumy put rubens on the top step, breaking protocol, not for the overtake.

Mmm thats true actually. Good point.

 

[dannyjo22]

So whatabout Hamilton and Alonso in 2007? If Mclaren had been able to use team orders, they would have won 2007.

Not really because Alonso still had a chance of winning the title. Yet ferrari did use team orders and move Kimi ahead of Massa for him to win the title over lewis.

Funnily enough I just looked through the thread and there are posts praising massa for moving over but funnily enough not one crying about team orders.

So basically it's ok because that was for a title. Despite people coming out with it's in the rules so it's illegal the same people didn't care at the end of 2007.

There is not one single post I can see about Team orders in the thread, people are more worried about the BMW fuel temp and those cars being excluded to give the title to Hamilton

 

[sunama]

After the move he said:
"Good lad. Just stick with it now, sorry."

Its the 'sorry' which was wrong for him to say. In a hearing, he will be asked what he meant by that. Now, he gave an interview to the press to explain it, but that explanation was weak.

The first message regarding Alonso being faster - not a problem.

Massa can be forgiven for making the team order obvious, as he was fired up and being asked to give up a precious win couldn't have been nice for him, but Smedley (if he wasnt happy with what he was asked to do), had the option to say that he doesnt want to give the message, (can somebody else give it).

Remember, the whole fiasco started with Smedley's words. Massa's obvious slow down made it worse. This then prompted numerous questions of the drivers, once they left the car. Again, Massa can be forgiven for being sad. Alonso was answering questions as if he had been trained by politicians - he was talking a lot by wasnt actually answering the question. Alonso is a very clever guy.

If you compare the above radio message (by Smedley) with that which was given to Button (in Turkey), when he was told to "conserve fuel", immediately after he attempting to overtake Hamilton - the difference is night and day. Many people don't even realise that there was a team-order in there. Smedley made it all too obvious.

 

[Cavallino]

Not really because Alonso still had a chance of winning the title. Yet ferrari did use team orders and move Kimi ahead of Massa for him to win the title over lewis.

No what Im saying is that had the team designated one of their drivers as prime driver they would have probably had a better chance of winning 07

Funnily enough I just looked through the thread and there are posts praising massa for moving over but funnily enough not one crying about team orders.

Exactly and its the same in China 2008 when Kimi moved over for Massa in a season which also went down to the last race.

 

[sunama]

There is not one single post I can see about Team orders in the thread, people are more worried about the BMW fuel temp and those cars being excluded to give the title to Hamilton

 

[sunama]

No what Im saying is that had the team designated one of their drivers as prime driver they would have probably had a better chance of winning 07

That goes without saying. Alonso and Hamilton lost the title by 1 point. Both drivers finishing on the same points - the worst result possible.

The problem was that there was serious disharmony in that team and Dennis wanted to play happy families. If Whitmarsh was in charge, maybe the result would've been different as he would've laid down the law and ordered one driver to back the other driver up with say 2 races to go (ie. the driver leading the WDC will be the one who will get the support of the other).

Anyway, its all done and dusted now...no point debating it.

 

[Cavallino]

That goes without saying. Alonso and Hamilton lost the title by 1 point. Both drivers finishing on the same points - the worst result possible.

The problem was that there was serious disharmony in that team and Dennis wanted to play happy families. If Whitmarsh was in charge, maybe the result would've been different as he would've laid down the law and ordered one driver to back the other driver up with say 2 races to go (ie. the driver leading the WDC will be the one who will get the support of the other).

Anyway, its all done and dusted now...no point debating it.

Precisely the point Im trying to make.

 

[dannyjo22]

The only post in the thread I could find on team orders was this one from you

LOL. They are contemplating asking Alonso to drop behind Hamilton

 

[[TW]Taggart]

One of the interesting things about this whole incident is that the pit will stations that the race engineers sit at have a little button marked "On Air". This button is always active throughout a race so the television companies can listen in and transmit conversations the the TV audience. However the teams can release the button to stop the conversation being sent to the TV company at any time - it's telling that Rob Smedley made damn sure that everyone heard his conversation...

From german GP all car to pit communications are available to the TV broadcasters, perhaps ferrari didnt get the memo?

 

[sunama]

In no shape or form has Ferrari forced Massa to move over. Its a thin argument if this went to a court case.

Thats exactly what I'm thinking.

Ferrari must stick to their story and say that Massa gave the position away voluntarily because Alonso was faster.
He did this because he didnt feel it right to hold up his team-mate.
He tried to pull away over the first 39 laps, but was unable to do so. Alonso proved he was faster, so Massa let him through.

Whatever happens now, they have to stick to this story. If they start changing their stories, they may get into worse trouble.

 

[Cavallino]

Spot on sunama.

 

[Baboonanza]

As are your comments for the following reasons:
Rubbish. The rule applies regardless of which position you are in. The rule does not apply to certain positions. Its generic, ergo, applies to the entire field.
...
Whether it was blatant or not is not the point. If its happened and was seen to have happened its punishable.

Massa/Kimi in Brazil 08 switched and Kimi won the championship. The media recognised it, the FIA recognised it, but it was not punished, why? It has all the hallmarks of team orders, and furthermore affected the outcome of the championship since Kimi won by one point.

I assume you actually mean Brazil 07, where (according to Wiki, I didn't watch much of that season) Massa was pitted 3 laps early to give his teammate the championship in the final race of the season.

There are two key differences here:
- Massa would presumably have been happy to let Kimi have the win to get the championship. If Kimi had cruised up behind him would he have got out of the way by himself? Probably IMO.
- They didn't make it blindingly obvious by having them swap on the track (though with fuel stops it was much easier than it would be today)

We all know, as does the FIA, that there are team orders. But nobody minds as long as there is plausible denyability and they are employed in a way that doesn't make F1 look like a farce. While the FIA has been inconsistent with regards to following the letter of the law everyone knows what it was designed to do and has stuck within the spirit. I guess we can agree to disagree, but I think everyone involved knew where the line was and Ferrari definitely crossed it.