German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

Thats actually a good question.

The follow up question has to be that if the fine issued is for breaking the rule, can Ferrari then get another punishment for the same (rule breaking) offence? Surely, Ferrari could argue that they have already been punished once (by way of a fine) and that they should not be punished again, for the same offence?

There is no double-jeopardy rule in the sport. Race stewards have punished to the maximum of their authority and referred to the WMSC (who have powers to inflict greater levels of punishment) because they clearly feel the punishment needs to be greater.
 
The stewards deemed they made team orders and brung the sport into dissrepute. One article did say that 100000 was the max stewards could impose allrhpugh wmsc can give pretty much any fine they want or ban, exclude, strip points.

Although I can't find the exact wording of rule or punishment to confirm.
 
The crazy thing is that in all this team order nonsense, few people have picked up on the fact that Ferrari beat everybody on geinuine pace (and not because someone ahead had an accident). This shows that the Ferraris are now genuinely fast. This must bode well for Alonso's WDC challenge.

I said before the race that I believed Alonso would be the highest scoring driver in the 2nd half of the season and from what I saw yesterday, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I think Alonso's big problem may come about as a result of all the furore surrounding the position-swap yesterday.

Do other people think that Alonso could be a big factor in this year's WDC or is it too late?
 
Sevral of us have said that, allrhpugh they need to repeat this speed on a high speed track as well before we know for sure. But it does certainly look like they are know equal fastest down to the same thousdanths of a second.
 
I don't think anyone was doubting - given their pre Germany pace - that Ferrari would play a major role in the rest of the season.

But on the topic at hand, I think the fair thing to do would be to eliminate the advantage that Alonso gained from the team orders, so an 8 points WDC&WCC penalty, and then have Ferrari punished in a suitable way such as a further WCC points penalty or suspended race ban.
 
I find it comical that everyone has jumped on the Anti-Ferrari bandwagon when teams in the past have been blatantly conducting team orders, regardless of whether it was more subdued or covertly implemented. Regardless of whether they were fighting for the championship or whether they were right at the back. Just funny.

In some ways, I do hope Ferrari get penalised further in some shape or form by the WSMC and if they do end up winning the WDC it would be a slap in the face to the F1 field.
 
If I agree to pass the message on, then I would do it correctly.
If I don't agree, then I would tell my bosses, that this is against the law and "I'm sorry, I cant do that". The employer can then ask someone else to do the dirty work.

What I wouldnt do, is agree to play ball (break the law, or similar), then balls it all up. Thats not the right thing to do to your employer.

I think you are being unfair on him to be honest.

The first message he said on the radio, we all know is:
"Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand?"

Now it's obvious that the team had discussed Team Orders prior to this race and others because they obviously came up with this 'coded message', otherwise Massa could have just taken it to mean... 'Fernando is faster than you..... you should probably get a move on!" (I could also say that this is probably one for Ferrari's lawyers to argue out.).

After the move he said:
"Good lad. Just stick with it now, sorry."

Now, we don't know whether anything was broadcast by Massa before he said that, but when you consider you've clearly got a shocked and demoralized driver in the car, you can't not say anything to him. His admission of 'sorry' I feel is unfair to call a balls up when you look just how much the rest of the team contributed to it being one too...

- Fernando is heard on the Radio at the end of the race asking "How is Felipe?" - demonstrating that he realizes he must be upset because he had to give his place away.

- Alonso's muted celebrations.

- Alonso waiting until he is upstairs to remove his helmet and his guarded attitude when he got out the car.

- There body language on the podium and how it was obvious Massa wanted to get away from it, only for Stefiano to drag them back onto the Podium as if it was all smiles at Ferrari.

- The Press Conference was again, extremely telling.

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It was obvious to everyone and this was a team mistake, you can't just blame it on one person.
 
I find it comical that everyone has jumped on the Anti-Ferrari bandwagon when teams in the past have been blatantly conducting team orders, regardless of whether it was more subdued or covertly implemented. Regardless of whether they were fighting for the championship or whether they were right at the back. Just funny.
That's complete bull, for several reasons:
- Team orders in mid-field aren't what the rule was ever intended to stop. The rule was specifically brought in to prevent exactly what happened yesterday.
- No other team has done anything nearly as blatant and result altering. Red Bull came closest and there probably would have been a big fuss about it if it hadn't spectacularly back-fired.
- All the other teams have been racing under the assumption that you couldn't blatantly order your drivers to swap places. IMO this is part of the reason why teams like McLaren have tried to get 2 strong drivers to begin with rather than just get a back-up for Hamilton. It's also the real reason why Horner is upset, he would love to be able to use team orders.

Not enforcing this rule and letting the Ferrari get away scot-free is both unfair to the other teams and an encouragement to do the same.
 
I bet Massa is regretting signing his contract now. Personally I would rather be in a mid-field team but have the oportunity to achieve on my own merits than be Alonso's bitch at Ferrari.
 
I'm not a ferrari fan and I thought it was crap. However I more sorry for Massa, he made the better move at the start and deserved to be ahead.

If alonso was faster he should have overtaken him himself. I know that it would be hard but that's racing.... and Massa was making mistakes all over the place when he got his hard tires on.

I thought Massa was brilliant tbh...
I'm glad he made it blatant because to hide it would have been unfair to him and made alonso look the better driver. I also thought he was great in the press conference when he kept stressing 'team' and when asked if he made a mistake just said 'he passed me, that's it'. Perfect.
 
I find it comical that everyone has jumped on the Anti-Ferrari bandwagon when teams in the past have been blatantly conducting team orders, regardless of whether it was more subdued or covertly implemented. Regardless of whether they were fighting for the championship or whether they were right at the back. Just funny.

A) team orders use to be legal.
B) no other team has broken team orders. (well they have but it's unprovable)
 
IMO Smedley and Massa weren't happy about the decision and made it as obvious as possible in order that the public would kick up a stink, similar to how Webber publicised his poor treatment.

Smedley had no need to say "Do you understand?" or "Well done, sorry" after he had let him through and it was also interesting that Massa just lifted after the harpin rather than allowing Alonso to steadily catch up and dive down the inside, they must surely have wanted everyone to clearly know what was going on otherwise why make it so blatant?
 
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IMO Smedley and Massa weren't happy about the decision and made it as obvious as possible in order that the public would kick up a stink, similar to how Webber publicised his poor treatment.

Smedley had no need to say "Do you understand?" or "Well done, sorry" after he had let him through and it was also interesting that Massa just lifted after the harpin rather than allowing Alonso to steadily catch up and dive down the inside, they must surely have wanted everyone to clearly know what was going on otherwise why make it so blatant?
True, Massa could easily braked too late for the hairpin locking his front tyres and running wide, he made it very obvious by accelerating slowly changing gear at 15k rpm instead of 18k

Rob Smedley and Felipe Massa wanted to make sure we all would know it was a team order.
 
As I pointed out just above though, the rest of the team did no favors in hiding its obviousness, so its unfair to try and claim its all Massa and Smedley's fault that they didn't get away with it.
 
thing is, if you are slower, you're slower and you need to get out of the way. it's a team sport afterall.

all that was going to happen was that alonso was going to get backed up into Vettel and potentially cost ferrari points one way or another.

the team orders rule make no sense in a team sport.
 
Except vettle did not have a bigger enough speed advantage to over take, there was little speed diffrence and massa was more or less matching alonso.

While the rule is there you have to follow it.
 
It will either be a huge fine or a race ban. I am thinking a combination of both will be it. Providing Ferrari don't send a huge bribe in the direction of Jean Todt...

Huge bribe?

They won't need to it will be at the most a bigger fine. How could they race ban ferrari for this when they didn't race ban mclaren for taking information from another team and having their drivers take information from another team. Regardless of what you think about Mclarens guilt and how far through the company that information went they were found guilty and fined millions.

They then issued a statement to say the team wasn't removed from races because it would be unfair on the drivers for a team error. (something they didn't care about with Honda).

Well it would be unfair on Alonso for this team error to have him removed from races for something out of his control when another driver slows to let him past.

I'd say they will fine them or remove them from the constructors which won't bother them because they won't win it.

Anything more wouldn't be fair on Alonso because in the eyes of any judge he wouldn't have done anything wrong. Just like they used the excuse of not banning Mclaren that hamilton didn't know about the passing of info from ferrari, which is equally as big as cop out as Alonso not knowing about the team order :D

One of the interesting things about this whole incident is that the pit will stations that the race engineers sit at have a little button marked "On Air". This button is always active throughout a race so the television companies can listen in and transmit conversations the the TV audience. However the teams can release the button to stop the conversation being sent to the TV company at any time - it's telling that Rob Smedley made damn sure that everyone heard his conversation...

Exactly why Smedley should be looking for a new job once the season and fuss had died down. I'd have him making tea for the rest of the season.

I said before the start of the season there was no way in hell Alonso had joined Ferrari without a no 1 status contact. Ferrari needed him and he held the aces at that time. You would have to go back a long way to find a ferrari team without a no1 and a no2. Massa has been good enough to sign that contract, tough ****. Smedley knows the score, no one forced massa to sign that contract and smedleys a bit thick if he doesn't know how ferrari operate.

If he's so outraged to air it in public he should go try working elsewhere.

I have little sympathy for a Irvine, Ruben or Massa that sign these contracts in the first place. Especially a rubens who spends his whole career saying he has no such contract until the day he leaves then bleats about it afterwards.
 
Baboonanza said:
That's complete bull, for several reasons
As are your comments for the following reasons:

Baboonanza said:
- Team orders in mid-field aren't what the rule was ever intended to stop. The rule was specifically brought in to prevent exactly what happened yesterday.
Rubbish. The rule applies regardless of which position you are in. The rule does not apply to certain positions. Its generic, ergo, applies to the entire field.

Baboonanza said:
- No other team has done anything nearly as blatant and result altering. Red Bull came closest and there probably would have been a big fuss about it if it hadn't spectacularly back-fired.

Whether it was blatant or not is not the point. If its happened and was seen to have happened its punishable.

Massa/Kimi in Brazil 08 switched and Kimi won the championship. The media recognised it, the FIA recognised it, but it was not punished, why? It has all the hallmarks of team orders, and furthermore affected the outcome of the championship since Kimi won by one point.

Additionally, (to silence "Massa is Alonso's female dog" comments) Kimi moved over for Massa under an instruction by the team, and that season also went down to the wire.

Baboonanza said:
- All the other teams have been racing under the assumption that you couldn't blatantly order your drivers to swap places. IMO this is part of the reason why teams like McLaren have tried to get 2 strong drivers to begin with rather than just get a back-up for Hamilton. It's also the real reason why Horner is upset, he would love to be able to use team orders.
So whatabout Hamilton and Alonso in 2007? If Mclaren had been able to use team orders, they would have won 2007.

Baboonanza said:
Not enforcing this rule and letting the Ferrari get away scot-free is both unfair to the other teams and an encouragement to do the same.

While I agree that they should be penalised, they should at least be penalised in the same way that they were in 2002. I.e. give them a $1m fine and thats the end of it. Historically, the penalty does not fit the crime.
But as to encouragement to do the same? Do a google for "team orders formula 1" and you will have plenty of examples of team orders over the past decade.
 
2002 it was not illegal. If guilty I expect a much larger fine and wcc points striped, I can't see a ban. If they are lucky they might get away with it as no "order" was given, but so obvious and telemetry.
 
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