German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

[Glaucus]

snip

and possibly other stuff that FIA has access to.
Those radio transmissions are damming though, that is the difference. Yes they can be interpreted in several ways. but it is the way the council interpretates them that is the important bit. The whole picture, everything put together makes it very likely it will be deemed team orders.

I can see this going 3 ways.

1) Ferrari is cleared.
2) Ferrari is fined and WCC points stripped
3) Ferrari is fined, Possible WCC points stripped and rules are clarified and are much stricter, meaning anything obvious is deemed as team orders.


I think no.3 is most likely. maybe a million-10 million fine and rule changes.

I can not see team orders being re-allowed. It might have a better chance if all the teams argued for it, but I can't see that happening. sponsors and viewers don't want team orders. Over the last 10-20 years. everyone must have an equal chance and things must be fair.

 

[el_dazza]

Slight change in subject and I am upset that nobody has wondered how Yamamoto got or why he retired. So to lighten everyone's mood after pages of bickering I shall let you all know. Sadly he retired due to accidentally pulling the fire switch instead of his brake bias and killed the engine in the process Poor chap, he even managed to start the race with his pit lane speed limiter on.

*cringe*

Shouldn't be allowed near an F1 car, let alone compete in a race

 

[Duke]

Slight change in subject and I am upset that nobody has wondered how Yamamoto got on or why he retired. So to lighten everyone's mood after pages of bickering I shall let you all know. Sadly he retired due to accidentally pulling the fire switch instead of his brake bias and killed the engine in the process Poor chap, he even managed to start the race with his pit lane speed limiter on.

lol Bring back Chandhok!

 

[Glaucus]

I really hope klien gets a couple of races.

 

[Ceryndrion]

First off, from my perspective, I would hasten to add that the FIA have access to ALL radio transmissions during a race, not just the little snippets that we hear from time to time.

Secondly, to use a phrase often used by ferrari when they are crying about another team, "they broke the SPIRIT of the rules."

Nobody is denying, that other teams have employed team orders in the past 8 years, but the fact is, they weren't caught, they did it quietly and didnt make it seem obvious. Yesterday may as well have been

RS: "Felipe, pull over and let the crybaby through."
FM: "For sure."
*FM Pulls over to the side, gets out, waves alonso through, gets back in and carries on..*
FM: "Was that good enough?"
RS: "For Sure.."

*meanwhile, SD gets on the blower to the lawyers*
SD: "So, for sure, we told FM to pull over for sure, for sure we gonna play it cool for sure, FIA for sure wont mess us around again for sure for sure"
Lawyers: "Don't worry SD, they'll not fine us much, just a slap on the wrists, well worth it.."
SD: "for sure.."

 

[Cavallino]

Although I didnt like the material subject. The for sures were funny

 

[lunarwolf]

If F1 is a team sport with constructors fixing races for drivers then lets not pretend there is a fair Drivers Championship which the best driver wins on merit.

F1 is not a fair championship in any way shape or form. if you wanted fair races for drivers then they would need to have cars with similar budgets similar to IRL where they run on same chassis. problem is that F1 is supposed to be cuting edge tech and probably the best sportscars, unless Carlsberg did one ofc. But while some teams can spend close to billions while others a fraction of that, the races will never be fair.

 

[NathanE]

Oh wow....

I have found an awesome article. I urge all to read it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports


Sound familiar?

You'll be digging forever over this. Germany 08 wasn't a team order for the following reasons:

* Heikki was far behind on the points and his WDC prospects were already mathematically over, from what I recall.

* Heikki would have been aware from various prior casual conversations (off track) that should such a situation arise, he should just let Hamilton pass easily.

* McLaren weren't in 1-2 positions. Heikki was running in a mid-front-field position from what I recall. As was Hamilton (albeit, and as proven by the win, out of rightful position).

* McLaren fluffed up Hamilton's pit stop strategy so he was on the back foot for several laps whilst he had to overtake Massa and Piquet. They felt guilty for putting him in that position.

* Hamilton actually WAS faster that race and after passing Heikki he went on to overtake a further 2 (3?) cars and win the race. As opposed to Germany 2010 where Alonso wasn't actually any faster.

There needs to be a clear distinction between a true and rock hard "team order" versus merely a "team message". There is nothing wrong with informing drivers over the radio of the team situation and then it is up to the driver to decide what (if anything) he needs to do. It's like how drivers are informed if their team mate retires from the race. So then they usually modify their driving style to make sure they get to the end - otherwise a 2 car DNF would be a disaster for sponsorship.

 

[Pete19s]

I really hope klien gets a couple of races.

As Martin pointed out, if it really is a performance related decision then it should have been Klien in the car for the weekend. No amount of sponsorship money can possibly take the pain out of how useless Yamamoto has been. As hilariously pointed out on twitter, he was out qualified by Liuzzi who had written his car off 15 minutes earlier.

 

[Glaucus]

F1 is not a fair championship in any way shape or form. if you wanted fair races for drivers then they would need to have cars with similar budgets similar to IRL where they run on same chassis. problem is that F1 is supposed to be cuting edge tech and probably the best sportscars, unless Carlsberg did one ofc. But while some teams can spend close to billions while others a fraction of that, the races will never be fair.

It's not meant to be fair in that sense. however it should be a fair playing field. All teams should have to abide by the same rules and punishments should be consistent.

It is fair for the reason any team can if they can gain the sponsors spend what they want, build a winning car etc.

It is not a same car series and is not meant to be,

 

[Glaucus]

As Martin pointed out, if it really is a performance related decision then it should have been Klien in the car for the weekend. No amount of sponsorship money can possibly take the pain out of how useless Yamamoto has been. As hilariously pointed out on twitter, he was out qualified by Liuzzi who had written his car off 15 minutes earlier.

Money has a lot to do with it, but hopefully it wont mean klien wont get a chance though. While they are useless it would be wise to try all drivers out, but give the paying one more time in the car.

that's what i would do anyway. make the money and try all drivers out, ready for next year when they might have a chance of fighting someone for a place.

 

[clv101]

Presumably from Massa's telemetry, they can show that he let Alonso through. He must have lifted, breaked earlier or something than he had on other laps...

It's clear they broke the rules so the only question is what punishment. That the breach of rules directly affected the points - it only seems right that the punishment reflects that and docks points. A fine can't be enough, as that would just be like buying points, buying your way out of the rules.

 

[el_dazza]

* Hamilton actually WAS faster that race and after passing Heikki he went on to overtake a further 2 (3?) cars and win the race. As opposed to Germany 2010 where Alonso wasn't actually any faster.

otherwise a 2 car DNF would be a disaster for sponsorship.

Really? Remember where he "lost" a second a lap, dropped back by 3 seconds and made that back up within 5 laps? Not faster eh, only half a second or more for 5 laps in a row.

Exactly the point I made earlier, but as it's Ferrari, nobody's going to buy it

 

[Glaucus]

Exactly the point I made earlier, but as it's Ferrari, nobody's going to buy it

It's the fact
A) it happened several years ago
B) FIA did not think it had enough evidence
C) circumstances were different.

 

[NathanE]

Really? Remember where he "lost" a second a lap, dropped back by 3 seconds and made that back up within 5 laps? Not faster eh, only half a second or more for 5 laps in a row.

Exactly the point I made earlier, but as it's Ferrari, nobody's going to buy it

He saved his tyres and fuel for a few laps. Then turned up the wick and ate a chunk out of his tyres to close back in on and intimidate Massa. And presumably provide that "carrot" of evidence for his team to make the team order remotely justifiable. And of course provide the carrot that Ferrari fans latch onto to defend their team.

 

[utajoker]

Presumably from Massa's telemetry, they can show that he let Alonso through. He must have lifted, breaked earlier or something than he had on other laps...

bbc showed the overtake from massas rear camera with the rev counter etc, when coming out of the hairpin he changed up gears at about 9k rpm for a couple of gears then when alonso was on him accelerated as normal to slot back in behind.

 

[nikebee]

You'll be digging forever over this. Germany 08 wasn't a team order for the following reasons:

* Heikki was far behind on the points and his WDC prospects were already mathematically over, from what I recall.

* Heikki would have been aware from various prior casual conversations (off track) that should such a situation arise, he should just let Hamilton pass easily.

* McLaren weren't in 1-2 positions. Heikki was running in a mid-front-field position from what I recall. As was Hamilton (albeit, and as proven by the win, out of rightful position).

* McLaren fluffed up Hamilton's pit stop strategy so he was on the back foot for several laps whilst he had to overtake Massa and Piquet. They felt guilty for putting him in that position.

* Hamilton actually WAS faster that race and after passing Heikki he went on to overtake a further 2 (3?) cars and win the race. As opposed to Germany 2010 where Alonso wasn't actually any faster.

There needs to be a clear distinction between a true and rock hard "team order" versus merely a "team message". There is nothing wrong with informing drivers over the radio of the team situation and then it is up to the driver to decide what (if anything) he needs to do. It's like how drivers are informed if their team mate retires from the race. So then they usually modify their driving style to make sure they get to the end - otherwise a 2 car DNF would be a disaster for sponsorship.

The problem is that it doesn't matter where drivers are on the field. A "Driver X is faster than you" will always be interpreted as "Let him past you..."

With Heikki and Lewis, you could argue that it was just as bad, as with Lewis being held up by Heikki it was doubtful he'd have won the race. Piquet and Massa could have stayed in front and the entire Championship from that year could have been different.

Yes Heikki actually was slower than Hamilton that day, but that shouldn't come into consideration. If he's informed to let the other guy past, it's against the rules.

If someone comes on the radio telling you your team mate is faster than you, and you know he has a better chance of winning the WC, and you know your team know he has a better chance of winning the WC, it'll be interpreted as "Let him past."

If they went on the radio to a driver and said, "Your team mate is much faster than you, you need to push if you want to win...." and he still let him past, then fair enough.

Teams will always bend the rules, saying something ambiguous and letting the driver decide is one of way. Over the years teams have done it countless times, but they've done it better than Ferrari did this weekend... and Ferrari got caught.

 

[el_dazza]

He saved his tyres and fuel for a few laps. Then turned up the wick and ate a chunk out of his tyres to close back in on and intimidate Massa. And presumably provide that "carrot" of evidence for his team to make the team order remotely justifiable. And of course provide the carrot that Ferrari fans latch onto to defend their team.

Never said it was justifiable, just stating he proved a point in that time. Intimidate Massa? Lol, he's supposed to sit 300 yards behind him just to be nice to him is he, instead of getting right behind him and try to race him? Ok

 

[NathanE]

Never said it was justifiable, just stating he proved a point in that time. Intimidate Massa? Lol, he's supposed to sit 300 yards behind him just to be nice to him is he, instead of getting right behind him and try to race him? Ok

This is Alonso we're talking about. Wouldn't race his team mates in the past, isn't about to start now

 

[Cavallino]

* Heikki was far behind on the points and his WDC prospects were already mathematically over, from what I recall.

So are Massas nearly and anoyone of sane mind will know that even if it is mathematically still feasible, he wont might a title challenge now.

* Heikki would have been aware from various prior casual conversations (off track) that should such a situation arise, he should just let Hamilton pass easily.

As Massa would have had with Ferrari.

* McLaren weren't in 1-2 positions. Heikki was running in a mid-field position from what I recall.

Irrelevant. Doesnt matter if you're 2nd or 20th. Team orders are team orders.

* McLaren fluffed up Hamilton's pit stop strategy so he was on the back foot for several laps whilst he had to overtake Massa and Piquet. They felt guilty for putting him in that position.

Once again irrelevant. The point is team orders.

* Hamilton actually WAS faster that race and after passing Heikki he went on to overtake a further 2 (3?) cars and win the race. As opposed to Germany 2010 where Alonso wasn't actually any faster.

Few points here:
1. Everyone in the paddock knows that Heikki is a mediocre driver at best and not getting the best out of his car. So its no surprise that he was able to create a gap between him and Heikki.

2. Alonso was faster than Massa as can be seen from the race. Most of the time he was behind Massa trying to get by but unable to, lest we also forget there was not much overtaking if any at all in the top 8 places after the first few laps. The fact that he was able to get past him and build up a 4.5second lead was proof enough that he was faster than Massa in a car which both drivers managed to find the best out of during the weekend.