Good AIO or Air?

michty_me · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:00

I'm just getting some bits together for a new Ryzen build and was wondering if a good AIO CPU cooler would be beneficial over a good air cooler.
I think the last time I looked into this, the general consensus was a good air cooler out performed an AIO. Has this changed?

Steampunk · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:41

michty_me said:
I'm just getting some bits together for a new Ryzen build and was wondering if a good AIO CPU cooler would be beneficial over a good air cooler.
I think the last time I looked into this, the general consensus was a good air cooler out performed an AIO. Has this changed?

Not really, no. If anything, good air coolers have improved a bit more over the last few years.

doyll · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:43

Nothing new. A well setup air cooled system will last longer and run as cool or cooler and as quiet or quieter than CLC or even a AIO can .. and cost much less to do it.

Meddling-Monk · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:46

Think it'll partly be affected by the number of fans, which case and whether you use a high end GPU (which throws out a lot of heat) as well.

In my recent experience of messing around with AIO and Water and switching them around:

1. If you have a hot GPU, and not enough extraction for the GPU, then an AIO for the CPU is better (less heat sources in the rear of the case to cause a Hot spot/Heat Trap)
2. If you have a hot GPU, and plenty of extraction for the GPU, then either AIO or Air is fine. With preference on Air for ease of cleaning and worry free if pumps fail (although that is what the warranty is for I guess)
3. If you have a hot GPU, but not enough venting spots in your case for more fans to extract heat, especially near the rear back, then AIO is better (like 1, less heat source near rear of case to cause a Hot spot/Heat Trap)
4. If you don't have a hot GPU, and have enough airflow, then Air is better (CPU cooling is your only concern and the area in the rear back of the case will less likely become a Hot spot/Heat Trap)
5. If you don't have a hot GPU, but are short on airflow, then AIO is better (as there's less heat generating components inside the case to heat the inside up before the heat can be removed)

AIO and Air (just on their own, without any other factors) will cool as well as each other in my experience. Just noise, maintenance, etc are very different.

doyll · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:51

In other words, use a case that has good airflow potential, set it up with good airflow using a good CPU air cooler and a GPU with a good air cooler and you will have a cool and quiet system for hundreds of pounds less than a custom loop .. and also much less than a CLC or AIO cost, generally with less noise too.

michty_me · 18 Jun 2019 at 16:52

Ok great. Thanks everyone.
I'm going to be getting a new case for the build too so be as well look for one that has good air flow and stick with a good air cooler.

doyll · 19 Jun 2019 at 11:46

Keep in mind most stock case fans are not much if any good. For example Fractal Design case fans are worthless.

Froomer · 19 Jun 2019 at 13:37

I'm using Be Quiet Dark Rock PRO 4 which is really good. Just make sure your case has enough room to fit it as it's pretty darn big

Also a good thermal paste should also be considered!

michty_me · 19 Jun 2019 at 14:41

doyll said:
Keep in mind most stock case fans are not much if any good. For example Fractal Design case fans are worthless.

Ah ok, I thought they would have been pretty good for coming with a decent case!! I'll have to factor that in too then. I was going to go with a meshify C but no front usb C port so doubt I will now.

Froomer said:
I'm using Be Quiet Dark Rock PRO 4 which is really good. Just make sure your case has enough room to fit it as it's pretty darn big

Also a good thermal paste should also be considered!

I was looking at that cooler last night. I didn't realise the size of it until I watched a YouTube video!! It's absolutely massive!!

Unseul · 19 Jun 2019 at 14:47

Got a meshify c with aro m14 on 2700x. When gaming with fans on full (only really hear the graphics card over speakers), it doesn't break 55c.

Worked out that my graphics card has been causing crashes due to heat, now I've given it a more aggressive curve it's not a problem.

Graphics cooling is a pain. Still plan on trying to fix a tower cooler to it.

michty_me · 19 Jun 2019 at 15:30

That's not so good.
What graphics card is it?
I best get the right case and coolers for the job then!!

michty_me · 19 Jun 2019 at 16:29

So what fans are half decent? I assume 140mm fans are better for shifting more air and quieter?

I've been looking at the BeQuiet cases too but not sure yet. Plenty time to decide.

Unseul · 19 Jun 2019 at 16:42

rx580 8gb powercolor. It just seems like the fan curve wasn't aggressive enough basically, now I have it maxing out at 60C, it rarely tops 65c in game. 1440p, ultra settings in games (albeit not necessarily the newest games), so I am pushing it hard.

I have 2 140mp phanteks (recommended by Doyll), and they shift the air through the filter well. Even when blowing hard it's not an unpleasant squeal that some fans have, doesn't sound too bad.

Meddling-Monk · 19 Jun 2019 at 16:44

140mm fans aren't necessarily better for shifting more air at quieter levels.

I've got both the Noctua A14 (140mm, pushes 115m3/h) and the A12x25 (120mm, pushes 102m3/h) for example, and the A14 at ~65% speed can actually cause a minor humming type of sound. The A12x25 needs 75-85% before anything like that is heard; You hear the rush of the air instead before the humming type of sound can be heard.

So depending on what type of fan filter/mesh/grille you have on the case, in terms of having the best flow for least noise, a 140mm fan may be better suited, but in some other cases, it may not.

Also remember to check for mm H2O levels, the higher the number, the easier the fan can ignore the fan filter/mesh/grilles and pull/push the air through more easily.

As for cases, again, the key thing if you have a GPU and a Air Cooler, is for the rear top section to have some vents, or can mount a fan that extracts into another section that reduces the noise of the fan and extraction sounds. Otherwise you will get a lot of noise escaping.

Meddling-Monk · 19 Jun 2019 at 16:48

Unseul said:
rx580 8gb powercolor. It just seems like the fan curve wasn't aggressive enough basically, now I have it maxing out at 60C, it rarely tops 65c in game. 1440p, ultra settings in games (albeit not necessarily the newest games), so I am pushing it hard.

You might want to make the curve even MORE aggressive. I have the same card I believe, unless you have the Dragon model (I have the Devil model). You can actually reduce it so the card hits just above 80C (but below 90C) and let it run that way for reduced noise (card only throttles at 90C+). The fans at 45% are noticably loud on the Red Devil, but once below that threshold, it is much less annoying and noticable. And once at 35% (don't try this in Summer). It likely will be the case in your scenario as well.

Unseul · 19 Jun 2019 at 16:56

Meddling-Monk said:
You might want to make the curve even MORE aggressive. I have the same card I believe, unless you have the Dragon model (I have the Devil model). You can actually reduce it so the card hits just above 80C (but below 90C) and let it run that way for reduced noise (card only throttles at 90C+). The fans at 45% are noticably loud on the Red Devil, but once below that threshold, it is much less annoying and noticable. And once at 35% (don't try this in Summer). It likely will be the case in your scenario as well.

I've set it to just kick in at 100% at 60C. I've got a 5.1 speaker setup, or headphones, and the noise really doesn't bother me that much I've found. Dragon version, so quite noisy. Graphics card is basically going to be the next main upgrade, but god knows when...

Meddling-Monk · 19 Jun 2019 at 17:30

Unseul said:
I've set it to just kick in at 100% at 60C. I've got a 5.1 speaker setup, or headphones, and the noise really doesn't bother me that much I've found. Dragon version, so quite noisy. Graphics card is basically going to be the next main upgrade, but god knows when...

Ah..., the Red Dragon version.

Yeah, heard nothing but bad reviews on that cooler designs cooling/noise output ratio, so chucking it to 100% early on probably won't be that much a difference at lower levels - So there's no real loss doing so.

I wouldn't have been so hell bent on silencing/reducing noise on my setup if I didn't get annoyed eventually with the sound it all makes after hearing the system one of my kids got here from OCUK. Have been using loud but powerful parts for so long (since 2002 I believe, multi AMD MP2200+ setup) I mistakenly thought all that generated racket was normal, rather than parts being just noisey. Could hear things I previously didn't notice now after silencing the system, so there's "some" difference in the end on the sound quality for those who reduce the noise produced from their systems.

A shame there's nothing to really change over to at the moment. Not for price vs performance wise anyway over our RX580s. :-/

EsaT · 19 Jun 2019 at 17:41

michty_me said:
I was looking at that cooler last night. I didn't realise the size of it until I watched a YouTube video!! It's absolutely massive!!

Dual towers are often huge covering most of upper part of motherboard.
Noctua NH-D15 is similar in size.
With looser fin spacing fin stack simply needs big dimensions to fit in necessary surface area to dissipate heat into air.
Same applies equally to waterpipe coolers and some average radiator simply doesn't have excess of surface area.

For more reasonable size with full DIMM and PCI-e slot clearance mid dense fin spacing Scythe Mugen 5 is very good for reasonable price.
It's basically just step behind the best in cooling per noise.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/scythe-scmg-5100-mugen-5-rev.b-cpu-cooler-hs-046-sy.html

Unseul · 19 Jun 2019 at 18:11

Meddling-Monk said:
Ah..., the Red Dragon version. Yeah, heard nothing but bad reviews on that cooler designs cooling/noise output ratio, so chucking it to 100% early on probably won't be that much a difference at lower levels - So there's no real loss doing so.

I wouldn't have been so hell bent on silencing/reducing noise on my setup if I didn't get annoyed eventually with the sound it all makes after hearing the system one of my kids got here from OCUK. Have been using loud but powerful parts for so long (since 2002 I believe, multi AMD MP2200+ setup) I mistakenly thought all that generated racket was normal, rather than parts being just noisey. Could hear things I previously didn't notice now after silencing the system, so there's "some" difference in the end on the sound quality for those who reduce the noise produced from their systems.

A shame there's nothing to really change over to at the moment. Not for price vs performance wise anyway over our RX580s. :-/

It's funny, i sort of prefer to hear my 140mm fans over any little whines etc. A small noise in a quiet environment will drive me nuts far faster than a constant, louder, but nicer sounding one.

michty_me · 19 Jun 2019 at 18:16

EsaT said:
Dual towers are often huge covering most of upper part of motherboard.
Noctua NH-D15 is similar in size.
With looser fin spacing fin stack simply needs big dimensions to fit in necessary surface area to dissipate heat into air.
Same applies equally to waterpipe coolers and some average radiator simply doesn't have excess of surface area.

For more reasonable size with full DIMM and PCI-e slot clearance mid dense fin spacing Scythe Mugen 5 is very good for reasonable price.
It's basically just step behind the best in cooling per noise.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/scythe-scmg-5100-mugen-5-rev.b-cpu-cooler-hs-046-sy.html

Thank you EsaT, I had been looking at the Mugen 5 cooler also.
Everyone raves about the Noctua cooler but my goodness it is ugly as sin. Could always change the fans I suppose but that's just extra cost.
The cooler choice will definitely be between the BeQuiet Dark cooler pro, Noctua D15 or the Mugen 5.

Edit to add: My GPU at the minute is a Vega 56 pulse edition so may undervolt it to run a bit cooler also.