Now taking the side off is an issue.
I can't do much with it until my CPU and motherboard arrive anyway, It is currently a desktop ornament
Good AIO or Air?
- Thread starter michty_me
- Start date
I can't do much with it until my CPU and motherboard arrive anyway, It is currently a desktop ornament
The cooling you pick will depend on what you are doing and the money you are willing to spend. With many CPU's a custom water loop is the way to go if you want decent overclocking or silence. AIO's can be very quite as well but going fanless can be hard. Air is good for stock, fanless air coolers can be very big (they also require great case air flow which requires funny enough lots of fans) and some moderate overclocking if you don't mind the noise of high rpm fans on the air cooler. The stock air cooler for the 3800x is good for example and I would not replace it unless you are overclocking or want to go silent. https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-cpu-coolers,4181.html https://www.overclockers.co.uk/be-quiet-dark-rock-pro-4-cpu-cooler-hs-01c-bq.html
This rule can change for different CPU's. Take the 3800x at 4.5GHz, there is nothing a water cooling setup can do to keep it cool at the voltage required and you will hit max temps in prime95 etc. 4.4GHz on water is 82c on a 360x60 custom water cooling loop in prime 95 small fft @ ~1.35volts under load and 1.42volts idle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssuqhyqah2k&feature=youtu.be
An air cooler would have real issues keeping the 3800x CPU cool under an overclock, which would be even worse with the 3900x/3950x. A really good closed loop AIO would be better https://www.overclockers.co.uk/cool...dressable-rgb-cpu-cooler-360mm-hs-080-cm.html etc. https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/coolermaster-masterliquid-ml360r-rgb,review-34523-2.html but you hit limits very quickly. Note full custom water cooling with a full copper water block and big beefy rad finds it hard going to stay under 85c in prime 95 etc. You want an overclock with temps under 75c 24/7. With AIO, 4.3GHz could be possible. Also a good option for silent cooling.
With a full custom water cooling loop 4.4GHz is possible with the 3800x and you can risk 4.5GHz. Note you can go fanless with a custom loop and cool everything in your PC. You can hear the hard disk spin and CDROM/dvd/blueray drive spin.
Next chilled water Hailea HC-500A etc https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cooling/hailea-hc-500a-water-chiller-review/7/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7pqc26TWAg -20c to -40c could be possible. This is the best cooling if you want low temps and don't want to go insane. It will cost you a lot. This is likely to bring down those 80-90c temps you can get at 4.5GHz all cores.
Insane cooling. On 3800x/3900x/3950x the best way to overclock is phase change and a good custom phase change setup will get you a 4.5GHz+ all cores overclock with approx. -100c temps https://www.overclock.net/forum/133-phase-change/1469603-three-stage-cascade-build-9.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QXp-UwrmEo https://www.overclockers.com/build-your-own-phase-change-pc-cooling-system/. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d0B0Dli-1g
This rule can change for different CPU's. Take the 3800x at 4.5GHz, there is nothing a water cooling setup can do to keep it cool at the voltage required and you will hit max temps in prime95 etc. 4.4GHz on water is 82c on a 360x60 custom water cooling loop in prime 95 small fft @ ~1.35volts under load and 1.42volts idle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssuqhyqah2k&feature=youtu.be
An air cooler would have real issues keeping the 3800x CPU cool under an overclock, which would be even worse with the 3900x/3950x. A really good closed loop AIO would be better https://www.overclockers.co.uk/cool...dressable-rgb-cpu-cooler-360mm-hs-080-cm.html etc. https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/coolermaster-masterliquid-ml360r-rgb,review-34523-2.html but you hit limits very quickly. Note full custom water cooling with a full copper water block and big beefy rad finds it hard going to stay under 85c in prime 95 etc. You want an overclock with temps under 75c 24/7. With AIO, 4.3GHz could be possible. Also a good option for silent cooling.
With a full custom water cooling loop 4.4GHz is possible with the 3800x and you can risk 4.5GHz. Note you can go fanless with a custom loop and cool everything in your PC. You can hear the hard disk spin and CDROM/dvd/blueray drive spin.
Next chilled water Hailea HC-500A etc https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cooling/hailea-hc-500a-water-chiller-review/7/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7pqc26TWAg -20c to -40c could be possible. This is the best cooling if you want low temps and don't want to go insane. It will cost you a lot. This is likely to bring down those 80-90c temps you can get at 4.5GHz all cores.
Insane cooling. On 3800x/3900x/3950x the best way to overclock is phase change and a good custom phase change setup will get you a 4.5GHz+ all cores overclock with approx. -100c temps https://www.overclock.net/forum/133-phase-change/1469603-three-stage-cascade-build-9.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QXp-UwrmEo https://www.overclockers.com/build-your-own-phase-change-pc-cooling-system/. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d0B0Dli-1g
At the minute, I'm only going to be running a Ryzen 3600 and probably won't bother with an all core overclock.
In the future, I plan to drop in a 12 core or possibly even a 16 core chip when prices settle and then just leave it for a number of years.
I built my 2500k setup back in 2012 and never touched it since so my builds last me a good few years.
If I do go down the 12/16 core chip route, I may have to look at a custom loop. I don't think I would ever go for an AIO now.
In the future, I plan to drop in a 12 core or possibly even a 16 core chip when prices settle and then just leave it for a number of years.
I built my 2500k setup back in 2012 and never touched it since so my builds last me a good few years.
If I do go down the 12/16 core chip route, I may have to look at a custom loop. I don't think I would ever go for an AIO now.
Custom loops can be very nice, but they are definitely very expensive and do require at least annual servicing or corrosion will set in and distroy them. A well setup air cooled system is as quiet unless pushing extreme overclocks running at high load, and even then a well setup air cooled system will only be a couple degrees warmer. My i7 920 @ 4.2GHz air cooled system has been running
I've got a i4770k that's been running at 4.6 Ghz for the last six years on a Noctua U14S. Apart from blowing the dust out of it once a year, it's zero maintenance. I don't even think I've changed the paste on it. It's mostly silent except under load, and then it's just a whooshing sound that you can't hear six feet away.
If you want to use your PC, go aircooling. If you like to fiddle about with it regularly, and are happy to risk water in with your electronics, then go water.
If you want to use your PC, go aircooling. If you like to fiddle about with it regularly, and are happy to risk water in with your electronics, then go water.
The less maintenance the better for me to be honest. I built my 2500k setup in 2012 and only repasted it this year!
I just like using my computer without worry of other stuff breaking which is why I went with air. I'm still interested in water cooling but I think I'll stick with air for now.
I just like using my computer without worry of other stuff breaking which is why I went with air. I'm still interested in water cooling but I think I'll stick with air for now.
Yes and no. Some of the top performers air coolers are chunky and few of them my sit too close to the GPU/first ram slot or even don't allow tall ram. Not a rule, but may happen.
The problem with the AIO, not always the amazing performance expected. Some do, some don't. The same regarding noise levels. The idea of something using liquid cooling, but not a custom loop, which in most situations can handle few hundred W dissipation more than the actual system ever will. And in some situations the ideal place for the radiator to be installed is at the front of the case, but the hoses aren't long enough.
This.
I use my pc a lot, but allow myself few days without it if needed.
Since I was a kid, always enjoyed dismantling my toys, and usually spent more time assembling them than actually playing with them.
Still behaving like that, at some extent. Always an unjustified pc upgrade, just for the sake of change or an ongoing project at the house or the car.
I've gone for the large air cooler for now and see how I get on with it.if not, I'll whip out the card and do a custom loop.
OP is talking about a new Ryzen build. Any overclocking and an air cooler is not going to end well. 3800x @4.4GHz in prime 95 is 83c with a good custom water cooling loop. @ stock it hits 60c in normal multi core applications. An i4770k would find it hard to hit 60c in prime 95 overclocked to the max with my water cooling setup. The 4930k hit 63-66c in prime 95 @ 4.5GHz 1.375vcore on my old lesser custom water cooling loop. Ryzen can get very hot once you overclock. 83c temps are very high on an all copper water block and massive 360 rad. Even for prime 95.
Really you need a chiller for cooling to really help you get the maximum overclocking. Aim for under 30c with a chiller. See graph link later in this block of text. The sweet spot is below 30c in the graph below which water cannot do without a chiller. Then it scales poorly from 0c down to -80c. Making phase change expensive for little return at stock settings.
You get ~100MHz for the first 20c reduction in temps from ~80c but after that you need to go lower than ambient cooling wise. Even so 40c in game is possible on a good day but in cinebench you will hit 60c+ and this will drop you bellow 4.3GHz. Expected is 4.249GHz for my chip. At 54c in the cpu-z benchmark then the expected clock is 4.274GHz. Then at 39c in World of Warcraft the clock is 4.374GHz. In game with 6 push-pull fans @ 1800rpm I do hit below 30c in World of Warcraft and this causes an all core boost of 4399 MHz.
Unless you have the cooling to hit 4.4GHz all cores then overclocking matters little. With the 3800x tweaking the RAM and IF is better with air cooling.
With air stay with the stock cooler but if you want to get a better cooler aim for below 60c in games. The lower the better. If you have a good custom water loop you can drop to 40c in games and get better performance at stock than some all core overclocking.
In many games I hit 4.375GHz all cores at stock @ 39c, using custom water cooling. This makes an all core overclock of 4.3GHz pointless, at least in World of Warcraft.
To go for an all core 4.4GHz overclock would be a 25Mhz increase in wow and does not seem to be worth it really. Basically staying below 60c in games is the way to go. You will get almost all your potential overclock as normal boost because of the lower temps. This graph could prove useful for the 3900x, also in the below video as well https://www.docdroid.net/cg6DAXn/chart1.pdf source matonted
Remember that a custom water cooling loop has a big price tag. £70 for a all copper CPU water block, £90 for the copper 360 x 60 rad and £130 for the D5 pump and reservoir. Then all the rest. Maybe a really good AIO would be a better balance.
The issue with an overclock, is at what point in an overclock will the chip degrade? 4.4GHz @ 1.337 volts could be possible with my chip but I have not stress tested it. Just a quick safe bench. Even so will it degrade the chip? Do you want to be the first to find out? Stock seems safer to me at the moment.
AMD Ryzen Frequency Scale - Temperature is Important for Ryzen 3000 CPUs
https://youtu.be/g94rNe4XSGU?t=411
If you want to hit 4.5-4.6GHz all cores then phase change is the way to go. At -80c the 3800x could well boost all cores to well over 4.4GHz @ stock. You can increase the vcore to get a better overclock and push toward 4.8GHz if the chip can. This is a very expensive option.
Really you need a chiller for cooling to really help you get the maximum overclocking. Aim for under 30c with a chiller. See graph link later in this block of text. The sweet spot is below 30c in the graph below which water cannot do without a chiller. Then it scales poorly from 0c down to -80c. Making phase change expensive for little return at stock settings.
You get ~100MHz for the first 20c reduction in temps from ~80c but after that you need to go lower than ambient cooling wise. Even so 40c in game is possible on a good day but in cinebench you will hit 60c+ and this will drop you bellow 4.3GHz. Expected is 4.249GHz for my chip. At 54c in the cpu-z benchmark then the expected clock is 4.274GHz. Then at 39c in World of Warcraft the clock is 4.374GHz. In game with 6 push-pull fans @ 1800rpm I do hit below 30c in World of Warcraft and this causes an all core boost of 4399 MHz.
Unless you have the cooling to hit 4.4GHz all cores then overclocking matters little. With the 3800x tweaking the RAM and IF is better with air cooling.
With air stay with the stock cooler but if you want to get a better cooler aim for below 60c in games. The lower the better. If you have a good custom water loop you can drop to 40c in games and get better performance at stock than some all core overclocking.
In many games I hit 4.375GHz all cores at stock @ 39c, using custom water cooling. This makes an all core overclock of 4.3GHz pointless, at least in World of Warcraft.
To go for an all core 4.4GHz overclock would be a 25Mhz increase in wow and does not seem to be worth it really. Basically staying below 60c in games is the way to go. You will get almost all your potential overclock as normal boost because of the lower temps. This graph could prove useful for the 3900x, also in the below video as well https://www.docdroid.net/cg6DAXn/chart1.pdf source matonted
Remember that a custom water cooling loop has a big price tag. £70 for a all copper CPU water block, £90 for the copper 360 x 60 rad and £130 for the D5 pump and reservoir. Then all the rest. Maybe a really good AIO would be a better balance.
The issue with an overclock, is at what point in an overclock will the chip degrade? 4.4GHz @ 1.337 volts could be possible with my chip but I have not stress tested it. Just a quick safe bench. Even so will it degrade the chip? Do you want to be the first to find out? Stock seems safer to me at the moment.
AMD Ryzen Frequency Scale - Temperature is Important for Ryzen 3000 CPUs
https://youtu.be/g94rNe4XSGU?t=411
If you want to hit 4.5-4.6GHz all cores then phase change is the way to go. At -80c the 3800x could well boost all cores to well over 4.4GHz @ stock. You can increase the vcore to get a better overclock and push toward 4.8GHz if the chip can. This is a very expensive option.
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If it helps, Linus Tech Tips recently did a test and the results were surprising:
For me there's another issue with AIO's - the inability to refill them. Over time I'm guessing like any water cooling system, the fluid will degrade and pick up organic deposits and the liquid could reduce in volume. The inability to refill means it's new cooler time.
I really wanted to go with an AIO, but they seem very difficult to justify - worse cooling, less reliable and throw away every couple of years?
It's worth pointing out here that a specialist water cooling system is another matter entirely and will out perform an air cooler.
For me there's another issue with AIO's - the inability to refill them. Over time I'm guessing like any water cooling system, the fluid will degrade and pick up organic deposits and the liquid could reduce in volume. The inability to refill means it's new cooler time.
I really wanted to go with an AIO, but they seem very difficult to justify - worse cooling, less reliable and throw away every couple of years?
It's worth pointing out here that a specialist water cooling system is another matter entirely and will out perform an air cooler.
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Yes, If I could justify the cost of a custom water cooling setup I would but at the minute, I've just gone for a 3600 CPU and will play about with the RAM and infinity fabric.
I know there isn't much to be had from overclocking the Ryzen 3000 series so felt a good air would be better suited for the job for me cost and maintenance wise.
I know there isn't much to be had from overclocking the Ryzen 3000 series so felt a good air would be better suited for the job for me cost and maintenance wise.
At least you get an air cooler with the CPU which can save you money. You can try for an IF of 1900 with 3800 ram or an IF 1800 with 3600 ram. If you have the money and time buy the fastest ram you can and clock it down to get the best timings. I have not been able to get my cpu to run at an IF frequency of 1900.
If you need to save money then get the best ram speed with the tightest timings you can get.
I've got 2x16Gb Samsung E-die sticks. I believe it is 3200 CL16 which quite a few have had it to 3600 CL16 easily. They haven't bothered tightening timings yet but I believe it's fairly good stuff. I'm currently just watching videos on how to do the RAM timing changes etc.
As for the stock cooler, i believe it's fairly garbage. That's why I went with a large air cooler.
As for the stock cooler, i believe it's fairly garbage. That's why I went with a large air cooler.
That's not quite true, in particular the reliability/throw away at 2 years. Yes an Air cooler over a duration of say 5 years or more is less likely to experience mttf than an Aio cooler my old titan Fenrir must be close to 10 years old and is still strong.
You can target Coolermaster seidon v1/2 as an example of an Aio with a high failure rate, maybe a few others.
However BEQUIET's Aio range have a refill port either in the pump or the rad and also feature g1/4 threads for system expansion. There are a few other manufacturers with refill port/expansion options ALPHACOOL, EK .
With regards to the fluid evaporation loss on a sealed system (no refill ports), then there's a very low chance of that occurring but if it did and you noticed the gradual symptoms, pump noise, air bubble noise, lower cooling performance then you can go the warranty route,
or if you are out of warranty then there's nothing stopping you from checking the aio loop out, or manually taking apart the aio system to refill the system.
At the same time if the pump totally failed but the rad was still good you could just buy a reservoir combined pump and reuse the coolant tubing or make up your own/ add a takeoff for a gpu block/cpu block , (7/8mm tubing etc).
So whilst I agree that there are situations where an air cooler is a better alternative, in retrospect there are situations where an aio is the more suitable solution.
I disagree with your viewpoint ''worse cooling, less reliable and throw away every couple of years?''
So if All that were to go wrong in a couple of years when your warranty is out, How much will it cost in upkeep? Fluids, Expansion, Pump, reservoir etc? Be as well go custom loop?
A little difficult to clarify as lots of variables , but most warranties are 2 or 3 years and then if you buy the aio with a refill port, then you are looking at the cost of the coolant of say £5-£8 or just distilled water to top up £1-£3.
Say the warranty was out, then If you had a cheap thin walled 120mm rad aio and the pump failed it probably wouldn't be worth upgrading or saving. But If you had a 120 thick wall/240/360 rad then you are 1/3 the way there to going custom, a good cheap reservoir pump would be £30-40.
You might need new tubing £5-£20, or reuse the tubing, you could gut the internals out of the aio dead pump and resue the block or just put on a new cpu block (price).
edit, but as some have already said, Ryzen 3*** doesn't have any overclock headroom, so really the best solution in my opinion would be a half decent air cooler.
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Yeah I believe Ryzen 3000 doesn't have much overclocking at all to be fair.
My idea was to keep it as cool as possible with little maintenance so it can (hopefully) hit its boost clocks all the time. That will depend on good BIOS and AGESA of course!