Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [17th - 22nd August 2012]

[Biz.Kid09]

I think Carrick is a good player.
When he's not there you notice it, when he is there you don't.

We are massively missing Barry at the moment as seen by the performance on Sunday.
I know basically no one here agrees me with that Barry is a good player and very important for us but he really is.

 

[Number_25]

Hey, sorry I couldn't reply sooner - I've been a tad bit busy this afternoon.

That wouldn't work for a number of reasons,

1. Scholes relegated to staying deep is a pointless waste of talent,

2. RVP is BETTER as a withdrawn striker, he'll score less but effect the game more,

3. Rooney just isn't as good as many people want to believe. I have no idea how he's perceived outside of England but I would guess its.... no where near as well as English fans perceive an England player.

1. Scholes can pull the strings in that deep position, getting the ball from the back four and spread it about. He's 37 now, his pace went 3 years ago so a forward-thinking position doesn't really suit him nowadays.

He's a superb passer of the ball and with Carrick's excellent defensive midfielder skills he shouldn't have any issue when getting the ball.

2. Robin van Persie was signed to score goals, I can see Fergie playing him in that #9 role with Rooney either just behind him or playing off the left wing.

3. Rooney is one of the finest footballers I have ever seen, he has everyhing good touch, aggression, work rate, speed, passing ability, knows where the goal is and can track back.

I feel that he's been restricted since leaving Everton - when he first broke on the scene he used to play behind the forward (Ferguson/Campbell) and basically pick up the ball and run at defenders with speed (The Gascoigne role if you will). He can score goals from there, he's good enough to do so.

 

[johnyccc]

For me it's a problem starting Scholes against teams who press high up the pitch and take the game to us. Scholes knows he hasn't the speed or stamina to get about much, so tends to stay very deep. In addition, he doesn't seem too keen on holding onto the ball under pressure. So he acts almost as a wall, with balls from the defense being played to him then immediately back or a few yards to either side.
When Everton dropped off, he was far more advanced and actually had time/space on the ball and was a much better option.
But in general the midfield looked unbalanced last night. Cleverly seemed unsure of his role, Scholes did the above and Kagawa was very high up. Generally I am not one for trying to change a players game but given the shortage of quality in the CM and given the fact both Rooney and RVP can play off the striker, I think Kagawa might be best being asked to drop deeper.

3. Rooney is one of the finest footballers I have ever seen, he has everyhing good touch, aggression, work rate, speed, passing ability, knows where the goal is and can track back.

I feel that he's been restricted since leaving Everton - when he first broke on the scene he used to play behind the forward (Ferguson/Campbell) and basically pick up the ball and run at defenders with speed (The Gascoigne role if you will). He can score goals from there, he's good enough to do so.

I don't think he has looked quite right psychically for a number of years. He seems to lack the sharpness, strength and speed he had when he was younger and has done for a while

 

[FrankJH]

Cant comment directly on last night's match as I could only listen to it on R5L (and although its disappointing, its not exactly unexpected given the fact Goodison has been a bit of a bogey ground for Utd in the last few years (and playing Everton anywhere for that matter)

While Scholes' passing is still pretty sublime, I just dont think Utd can afford to have a player with such little mobility with his notoriously well-timed (from a bad point of view) tackling as well.

Im still convinced that for the club the best way forward (even if it means alternating Rooney and RvP) is to go 4 -3 -3 if Fergie isnt able to find a quality box to box cm with a good crunching tackle

Utd have played 4-4-2 for majority of SAF's time at the club, and probably before that - but currently we dont have a strong / versatile enough cm pair to be able to do this without putting un-necessary pressure on an already weakened defence

 

[drunkenmaster]

Hey, sorry I couldn't reply sooner - I've been a tad bit busy this afternoon.



1. Scholes can pull the strings in that deep position, getting the ball from the back four and spread it about. He's 37 now, his pace went 3 years ago so a forward-thinking position doesn't really suit him nowadays.

He's a superb passer of the ball and with Carrick's excellent defensive midfielder skills he shouldn't have any issue when getting the ball.

2. Robin van Persie was signed to score goals, I can see Fergie playing him in that #9 role with Rooney either just behind him or playing off the left wing.

3. Rooney is one of the finest footballers I have ever seen, he has everyhing good touch, aggression, work rate, speed, passing ability, knows where the goal is and can track back.

I feel that he's been restricted since leaving Everton - when he first broke on the scene he used to play behind the forward (Ferguson/Campbell) and basically pick up the ball and run at defenders with speed (The Gascoigne role if you will). He can score goals from there, he's good enough to do so.

Basically everything you said is wrong.

Scholes never had pace, you don't need pace in football full stop and you certainly don't need more pace to stand still 30 yards from their goal instead of 50 yards from their goal. He was deeper than usual last night because there wasn't a DM alongside him, he's completely wasted that deep and Carrick, excellent defensive skills.......... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

RVP got more assists than, Scholes, Rooney or Kawaga did last year, aside from you saying so, where is the proof he was signed PURELY for goals? He's a much better player than Rooney in terms of creation, vision, passing and technical skills. Rooney up front with RVP just behind makes more sense than the other way around. RVP was signed at Arsenal as a WINGER I'll just say it again, he spent 5-6 years playing either the wing(first 2 years only really) then as a withdrawn striker, with the only comparison made being with Bergkamp, never once was he compared to Henry, every single time, Bergkamp, a guy who played wing, withdrawn striker and now and then he played central midfield.


Rooney is one of the finest footballers you've ever seen...... HAHAHAHA.

Of the things you listed, actual footballing ability touch and passing, he is NOT a good passer, has never been a good passer. Touch and control isn't Rooney's strong point either, he's no Adebayor for whom first touch usually means a 10 metre sprint to make a second touch, but no, he's not known for his first touch, ability to control the ball. Berbatov has a superb touch, absolutely top notch, Rooney doesn't. It's like people watch Rooney on his own on the pitch and can't possibly compare him to other players. If Berbatov has a superb touch and he's MUCH better than Rooney in that regard, its pretty simple, then Rooney doesn't have a superb touch.

Aggression isn't a footballing talent, neither is pace, neither is work rate, tracking back is merely the decision to run backwards or not, not really a talent, he rarely wins the ball back despite all this running around and rarely helps. Strikers actually staying upfront to receive the ball on a quick break are infinitely more useful than one who runs around like a headless chicken more often fouling than winning the ball back.

I've said for probably 5 years that Rooney's main strength both at Everton and early at Utd was pure power, he didn't play like Gazza, he didn't dribble around players, he ran through them like he was bigger and faster, because he was. he shot with power, he ran with power, he played with power. Not precision, not skill, not technical ability, not passing, not creating goals, he played with pure power and he was dangerous as ****. Last 4-5 years, he's played various roles but he's never played in the same way, pure power, and he keeps going back to this drifting deeper trying to be the playmaker role without the talent/ability required to play that role.

 

[Gilly]

Berba has a better first touch than pretty much anyone when he's on his game.

I wouldn't say Rooney has a bad touch, but I would also argue vehemently against you saying that he can't pass.

 

[Number_25]

Basically everything you said is wrong.

Scholes never had pace, you don't need pace in football full stop and you certainly don't need more pace to stand still 30 yards from their goal instead of 50 yards from their goal. He was deeper than usual last night because there wasn't a DM alongside him, he's completely wasted that deep and Carrick, excellent defensive skills.......... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Scholes certainly did have pace no personal attacks - Gilly. You can play deep and still contribute to attack (see Joe Allen, Lucas, Barry, Rodwell, Song)

RVP got more assists than, Scholes, Rooney or Kawaga did last year, aside from you saying so, where is the proof he was signed PURELY for goals?

Scholes didn't play much last season, Kagawa wasn't even playing for United.

“His talents need no introduction to our fans – he has scored a number of goals against us in some classic battles with his former club." - Sir Alex Ferguson seems to think that to score goals are what he's there for.


He's a much better player than Rooney in terms of creation, vision, passing and technical skills. Rooney up front with RVP just behind makes more sense than the other way around. RVP was signed at Arsenal as a WINGER I'll just say it again, he spent 5-6 years playing either the wing(first 2 years only really) then as a withdrawn striker, with the only comparison made being with Bergkamp, never once was he compared to Henry, every single time, Bergkamp, a guy who played wing, withdrawn striker and now and then he played central midfield.

He played CF last season, which was his best in a Arsenal shirt.

Rooney is one of the finest footballers you've ever seen...... HAHAHAHA.

He certainly is.

Of the things you listed, actual footballing ability touch and passing, he is NOT a good passer, has never been a good passer.

Rooney not a good passer of the ball, what you smoking?

Touch and control isn't Rooney's strong point either, he's no Adebayor for whom first touch usually means a 10 metre sprint to make a second touch, but no, he's not known for his first touch, ability to control the ball.

He can run at defenders at pace. His first touch is usually exceptional.

Berbatov has a superb touch, absolutely top notch, Rooney doesn't. It's like people watch Rooney on his own on the pitch and can't possibly compare him to other players. If Berbatov has a superb touch and he's MUCH better than Rooney in that regard, its pretty simple, then Rooney doesn't have a superb touch.

Aggression isn't a footballing talent, neither is pace, neither is work rate, tracking back is merely the decision to run backwards or not, not really a talent, he rarely wins the ball back despite all this running around and rarely helps. Strikers actually staying upfront to receive the ball on a quick break are infinitely more useful than one who runs around like a headless chicken more often fouling than winning the ball back.

I'm sorry, but this is utter no swearing - Gilly. Pace, work rate and a willingness to track back shows footballing talent - no other player in the EPL can do it as well as he can. I have seen him before picking the ball up from a deep position, spreading it across the park and then making a darting run into the opposition area and scoring plenty of times.

I've said for probably 5 years that Rooney's main strength both at Everton and early at Utd was pure power,

Rooney was tiny when he was at Everton, he didn't depend on power at all. He was all about little passes, darting in and out and picking the ball up, spreading it and making himself available for a pass.

he didn't play like Gazza, he didn't dribble around players, he ran through them like he was bigger and faster, because he was. he shot with power, he ran with power, he played with power. Not precision, not skill, not technical ability, not passing, not creating goals, he played with pure power and he was dangerous as ****. Last 4-5 years, he's played various roles but he's never played in the same way, pure power, and he keeps going back to this drifting deeper trying to be the playmaker role without the talent/ability required to play that role.

And this thing of van Perise has more assists than Rooney is utter crud.

425 appearances - Rooney has 104 assists.
289 appearances - van Persie has 60 assists

Rooney = 0.244706 assists p/game
van Persie = 0.207612 assists p/game

Get real.

 

[Robbo]

DM absolutely hates Rooney and likes to slate him, you won't change his mind. Thankfully most people will agree he's a quality player, one of the best.

My only concern with Rooney is that he doesn't look sharp or particularly fit at the moment, a problem we've had before.

 

[Purdy]

It is like DM likes to have an eccentric view just to be different, it honestly wouldn't shock me to hear him call Messi an average player.

 

[matt0r]

It is like DM likes to have an eccentric view just to be different, it honestly wouldn't shock me to hear him call Messi an average player.

Id just like to see more posts where he isnt utterly rude.

 

[drunkenmaster]

DM absolutely hates Rooney and likes to slate him, you won't change his mind. Thankfully most people will agree he's a quality player, one of the best.

My only concern with Rooney is that he doesn't look sharp or particularly fit at the moment, a problem we've had before.

NO I don't hate him, I think he's laughably average and hilariously over rated. Nothing more or less, if you don't agree a player is brilliant, on this forum and most places you are simply regarded as hating said person.

It is like DM likes to have an eccentric view just to be different, it honestly wouldn't shock me to hear him call Messi an average player.

Actually I have a view based on football and am not afraid to slate a crap performance for being crap, because everyone else cowers together afraid to have a different view. Anyone who thinks Rooney is a brilliant passer or has an exceptional touch either hasn't seen an actual brilliant passer with a brilliant touch and Rooney is genuinely the best they have seen at either.... or they don't watch much football at all.

He is not a good passer, full stop, Xavi/Cesc/Messi are exceptional passers, Rooney is not even close, brilliant first touch, Messi, Berbatov, Cesc, all the same guys again, Rooney isn't close. unfortunately there is this thing where English players are concerned, if they're better than Heskey... suddenly they're brilliant.

Put all players on a scale, Rooney is not at the top end of that scale for passing or touch, nor anywhere near the top, its that simple. I "hate" some players, Barton, Diouf, the guy whose name I constantly forget, the big lump at Sheffield Utd who goes around trying to kill everyone, CB. Rooney I don't hate, nor like, banged a prostitute, granny or not I honestly don't care. Cheat on your wife... like 98% of the world does at some point, don't care either. Cheat on your wife with your brothers wife is a different level of scummy, beat women, rape, footballers who do that kind of thing I do hate. Rooney's done nothing for me to hate him for at all. I just can't see where in any part of his game he's comparable to the best.

Id just like to see more posts where he isnt utterly rude.

I called someone completely wrong, I'm going to call you completely wrong in calling me rude. I wasn't rude, someone replied to my post with multiple personal attacks.... and you call me rude, its quite laughable how often I'm attacked on here by people who don't like to be called wrong, and I'm the rude one.

Far too many people on here simply agree on everything, think verbal attacks are "fine" but calling someone wrong is reprehensible. The post that apparently caused such insense he felt the need to get suspended replying to, please point out which bit was so obviously rude?

 

[Bucket]

Shame DM trapped someone into getting suspended by winding them up with his walls of texts as per.

And DM just for the info, the manner in which you post and 'talk' to people is what is rude, not so much what you say. Of course, it's the internet and that's open to interpretation but it's how it comes across. You are also 'never wrong', which I imagine riles people up.

 

[The Running Man]

So i mean, we have come to a crossroad.

Fergie must have realised last season that playing with zero style and zero flair will cost you. Infact we won nowt but a charity cup.

he hasnt really done anything to address this in the summer. We could see from last nights display, our best chances were on the counterattackl Smaller teams are meant to use counterattack to start moves against dominant teams. We have the ability to dominate the ball on our side of the half way line as other teams back off a bit, knowing we will be unable to penetrate when we get to the edge of the box.

the issue is, when your Man Utd, you're meant to be dominating matches, not trying to hit teams on the counter attack. We couldnt break down a defensive style, and we still cant.Summer gone, millions spent... No real improvement. Sure we have RVP now who will help us to score the chances we do create. But what if you arent creating many chances?

Last season we struggled with:

Corners attacking and defensive. Still an issue
RB fundamentally this issue is not resolved
Cohesive team rhythm non
Tackling centre midfield to break up opponent attacks and start our own. Not happened

The scary thing is Kagawa has come in and made the rest of our team look like useless shovel footed statues. He wasnt even Dortmunds best player and he still makes a mockery out of the rest of our team.

We still have no height up front, we have no Plan B.

im at a loss to understand what we can do better this year than we did last year.

 

[Robbo]

I don't know if DM intends to be rude or not, but his posts certainly read as if he's 'shouting' and being very aggressive, as well as the extremely condescending tone they often contain.

I think I pointed this out before.

 

[Dimi]

If Wayne Rooney is world class, what does that make Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi & Iniesta to be? uber world class?

He goes missing far to much for my liking, he's nowhere near those guys in terms of consistency.

He's also not much a professional tbh, you'd expect people who earn 200k a week to be in shape for the first game in ANY sport. He doesn't strike me as someone who looks after his body.

 

[Tom84]

He goes missing far to much for my liking, he's nowhere near those guys in terms of consistency.

Goes missing how exactly?

Last season he scored 3 times against Arsenal, 3 times against Chelsea, twice against City, twice against Liverpool, twice against Spurs and expanding on that further the previous season he scored against Barca in the Champions League final, twice away to Chelsea (once in the UCL on the way to the final) another against Arsenal and of course the overhead kick against City.

If there's one thing you cant level at Rooney is a tendency to 'go missing'

 

[Tom84]

So i mean, we have come to a crossroad.

Fergie must have realised last season that playing with zero style and zero flair will cost you. Infact we won nowt but a charity cup.

he hasnt really done anything to address this in the summer.

Yep by adding Kagawa and RVP we've added no style or flair to the squad have we

Nick can you do me a favour? Stop posting. Please. Pretty please?

 

[cm1179]

If Wayne Rooney is world class, what does that make Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi & Iniesta to be? uber world class?

DM has nailed when rooney was at his best a few pages ago and i struggle to see how anyone could disagree. rooney was at his best when he was younger, with a gung-ho attitude at getting into a back 4's face and feeling invincible to any back 4, smashing the ball into the net and chasing down defenders and midfielders for the ball. his biggest advantage was his relative unknown ability to do this, his no fear attitude and his physical power.

over the past 4 years, this has faded year on year. he still has elements of it, he'll still strike fear into a back 4 and smash the ball in, chase, grind down the oppositions and is capable of winning games by constantly pushing, just not as much as he used too. could be age, could be becoming a father, could be a change in attitude, could be a lot of things, what is certain, is he's not quite what he once was but even not being what he once was, he's still a unique act and one of the best in the pl when all is taken into equation. not the best striker united have ever had though, not by quite a margin.

 

[matt0r]

snip

personal attacks whilst rude within themselves are not the only way to be rude and just because you're rude within the confines of the admin of this forum doesn't a: make you a pleasant poster to read and b: make it personally acceptable to most of the posters here. Robbo mentioned above he didnt care for it and i believe onemoresolo also called you out on it in a different thread.

Your overly aggressive posting style is unnecessary and your constant use of caps to illustrate your points is not needed either. This is why you're derided, im not actually one of these posters who basically go 'its dm lol, ignore' because you do make some points i agree with, but that said i wouldnt want to get into a discussion with you.

 

[Caseh]

I "hate" some players, Barton, Diouf, the guy whose name I constantly forget, the big lump at Sheffield Utd who goes around trying to kill everyone, CB.

I'm guessing you're talking about Chris Morgan? And if so, he isn't as bad as you make out. He's strong, and very, very rough, but I can't remember him going into a tackle trying to injure anyone, and I can't remember any injury off the top of my head he has caused. His tackles do probably hurt a bit, but then again, so would someone like Vidic's (Calm down dear, I'm not comparing their ability.)

He also is a brilliant bloke outside of football, and after meeting him several times, he's the most down to earth footballer I've come across.