Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [18th - 21st January 2014]

I'm actually hoping Moyes goes soon now, so we can find this world class manager to turn it all around and we can stop hearing about back room staff being changed like it's this new concept when a manager comes in.

I highly doubt even Mourinho could get anything out of that shower of a back four.

In the very vast majority of cases managers leave a club because they have been failing, not succeeding. Very rarely does someone retire from a top club, when a team of manager/coaches are failing, replacing them all makes sense to some degree, but a large part of that is because the coaches brought in have worked well with the manager for years.

Moyes went to a job at a club vastly bigger than anything he's previously experienced, some of his coaches, Neville for instance, is very inexperienced at any level, in that particular set of circumstances when there is an existing experienced and highly successful backroom staff that, importantly, have been getting the best out of the existing squad for years...... it was utterly brain dead to get rid of them.

Comparing it to say Palace firing Holloway, where he sucked badly, his coaching wasn't working, and a new guy coming in and installing his own staff(I'm not sure Pulis did at Palace) would make a lot more sense.

I said for quite a long time that Wenger's coaching methods, his "ultra fitness" campaign he waged for years was hurting us badly injury wise. Then he started treating RVP like an individual, and he went 18 months uninjured, Fergie treated RVP like an individual, went uninjured for a full season in which he won titles and was key to that, Moyes treats them all like robots who are identically physically capable, RVP is constantly injured.

Wenger still has his "player fit, never heard of rotation, he'll play till he's injured" mentality, which has still cost multiple injuries since, and Moyes has done this also, though publicly admitted this was mostly down to fear of fans reaction.

Had he kept on some of the backroom staff they may have explained to him that RVP training differently kept him the best striker in the league for three years.

Moyes is a manager who had limited budget, limited staff, limited expectations and appears to be trying to translate the Everton way of doing things on Utd, rather than trying to change himself to learn how to run a much bigger club.

Wigan couldn't afford a physio and coach to individually train top players most likely, Everton probably couldn't, Utd can. Just everything he's done, his mentality, he still hasn't done anything at all to suggest he is remotely ready to adapt to the requirements of managing a team of Utd's size.


People have been banging on about top players, it's rare for truly top players to leave top clubs. While Ronaldo was great at Utd, he's still moved on to a completely different level at Real, if he was a 60-70goal a season player for 4 years in a row while at Utd, Real couldn't have afforded him. £30mil or £60mil Cesc didn't want to leave, this was clear as day.

They should have been identifying realistic targets over summer, younger players, guys who like Bale(but without the overhype-ness) had improved for 2-3 seasons in a row and were likely about to get really good, the guys who play anywhere below top 4 clubs that you can actually get. Going after a first team starter at Barca, who had been consistently their second best player for 2 years, who loves Barca, who loves Arsenal as well..... outside of Ronaldo and Messi I can't actually think of a less available target to Utd.
 
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:rolleyes:
 
I do find it funny how the current opinion has changed to Fergie left an ageing squad, ignored weak areas of the pitch, bought poorly and left the incoming manager a mess to sort out from he can do no wrong greatest manager ever etc.

When I have said what has been going wrong from 2008 onwards you all said I was wrong to question Fergie.
Well here we are, with no midfielders, average players being picked, top youth players gone or not used no top signings and a car crash season.
And it was all on the cards 5 years ago.
 
Well despite everything going wrong he did manage to pick up 3 league titles, an FA Cup and 2 League Cups in that period where there was almost unprecedented competition in the form of Chelsea and then Man City. I think the team has under-invested somewhat and because of the expectations of success has had to rely on the older guard so what you have now is similar to when, say, the Aussie cricket team got old and all of a sudden they weren't as invincible.

IMO if Fergie left 5 years ago while they might be in slightly better shape now, there's a more than decent chance that their honours board for the last 5 years would look a lot more like Arsenal's than it does right now.
 
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I do find it funny how the current opinion has changed to Fergie left an ageing squad, ignored weak areas of the pitch, bought poorly and left the incoming manager a mess to sort out from he can do no wrong greatest manager ever etc.

When I have said what has been going wrong from 2008 onwards you all said I was wrong to question Fergie.
Well here we are, with no midfielders, average players being picked, top youth players gone or not used no top signings and a car crash season.
And it was all on the cards 5 years ago.

It can be fixed though. We need a few new players in to lift the club, preferably now. If we added two ideal new players in the right positions, and had RvP and Rooney fit, our strongest side would be capable of beating almost anyone.

The job now should be damage limitation of sorts, everything has to be focused on getting top four, which in turn will give us better options for summer signings. Even without top four I'm sure we can attract some great players, but perhaps not the best that we'd ideally want. If we beat Sunderland on Wednesday, we face Man City in the final and will probably lose with the squad in its current state. If we lose against Sunderland, the press and a notable section of the fanbase will lynch Moyes. I think it is getting to him, it has to be, after the game yesterday he looked completely drained.

As Gary Neville said yesterday, the club needs help. Help in the form of players. Everyone recognised Sir Alex left an ageing squad, short on quality. Remove the two star players and the team looks very ordinary. In the summer we should have been making very large transfer offers for a whole range of targets. Fabregas was a wild goose chase and he's the kind of player you offer £50m+ for, not £26m. We don't need Fabregas to fix this team, so where were the secondary targets? Whoever is to blame for this, it has resulted in Moyes essentially being hung out to dry this season (it can't all be his fault). He's facing the most difficult task in modern day football, and the tools he has to do it are simply not good enough. I think he should be doing better anyway, ignoring the players, but he isn't being given much help - at all.

I think the money is there for us to spend, I don't think it's a war-chest situation (which the media so dearly love), more a case of, we'll buy the best players we can if we need them, and we do need them. Obviously we can't offer insane sums of money, but there are many teams that will be prepared to sell if they get a very good offer.

The comparisons with Martinez at Everton are getting a bit long in the tooth now, he's been left a solid team by Moyes and has strengenthed it with a few very good players, yet is still in the same position. He's doing well and the football is more exciting, but ultimately the net result will be the same. Going from Wigan to Everton is nothing like Everton to Man Utd post-Ferguson era, too.

Everyone keeps banging on about how hard it is to sign people in January, if they're going to be available in the summer, then they'll be available for more money now. This has to be offset against the kind of money (and pulling power) we'll lose if we don't make the top four. It also means we'll have had the players in question for longer which will be better for next season.

If the Glazers are having second thoughts about Moyes and don't want to back him with big money, this is an impossible situation and they need to sack him, otherwise - It's time to buy.
 
Everyone keeps banging on about how hard it is to sign people in January, if they're going to be available in the summer, then they'll be available for more money now.

I dont agree with this - from a player's point of view they may be able to get CL football for the rest of the season with their current club and not with Utd (due to already being played in the earlier rounds)

Otherwise I completely agree with you.



Just laughs at all those who think the major parts of the backroom staff werent offered jobs under Moyes - it was them who chose to move on which has been stated many times.

edit - If that twitter is true, good riddance - if he is only following for the glory rather than love for the club it wont be long before he is hoping to yet another club.
 
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You weren't at the game then? :confused:

That is an incredibly blinkered view, to say the least. For a home game your team looked fairly poor, if we had our two best players on I think we'd have done some damage to you. We'd have probably still conceded but could have won or at least got a draw.

Yes I was and we did that with hardly putting a foot in the gas pedal. You were lively in the first twenty minutes and were very easily contained after that it was just easy. There was nothing poor with our performance and we could have had more in the second half if we had wanted to. Your performance was poor because of errors and lack of conviction;

United looked to have conceded the game after the first goal, it was a spineless performance which is indicative of what is going on with the team at present. So you put it down to missing two strikers but funny how we win quite often with ours scoring or doing very much. You have a big squad and other strikers so using injury as an excuse is just lame for a club of your stature.

You need to stop clutching at straws. Your defence needs an overhaul, you need some creativity in midfield and come the summer maybe one or two strikers as I can see both of them leaving. Moyes had better sort out his tactics or he’ll be off as well. The immediate problem you have is one of a general malaise and it is one which requires good management. There is still time to sort that out but time is running out fast.

If Moyes asks for help I'm ready to come and offer more advice. :p
 
You say that but you've looked like that quite often this season, not much good blaming 'gears'. I'd hardly call playing like an away side at home a footballing lesson, or anything even remotely close to one.


I'd think about agreeing with you. But then I think how many times we've played like the away team at home this season. And trust me we just suck home and away.
 
Yes I was and we did that with hardly putting a foot in the gas pedal. You were lively in the first twenty minutes and were very easily contained after that it was just easy. There was nothing poor with our performance and we could have had more in the second half if we had wanted to. Your performance was poor because of errors and lack of conviction;

United looked to have conceded the game after the first goal, it was a spineless performance which is indicative of what is going on with the team at present. So you put it down to missing two strikers but funny how we win quite often with ours scoring or doing very much. You have a big squad and other strikers so using injury as an excuse is just lame for a club of your stature.

You need to stop clutching at straws. Your defence needs an overhaul, you need some creativity in midfield and come the summer maybe one or two strikers as I can see both of them leaving. Moyes had better sort out his tactics or he’ll be off as well. The immediate problem you have is one of a general malaise and it is one which requires good management. There is still time to sort that out but time is running out fast.

If Moyes asks for help I'm ready to come and offer more advice. :p

No offence Cosimo but you seem to have only been a hardcore Chelsea fan for the last few years, so what makes you think you can offer insightful analysis into what's going wrong at Man Utd?

Do you know much about Chelsea before Abramovich?
 
Yes I was and we did that with hardly putting a foot in the gas pedal. You were lively in the first twenty minutes and were very easily contained after that it was just easy. There was nothing poor with our performance and we could have had more in the second half if we had wanted to. Your performance was poor because of errors and lack of conviction;

United looked to have conceded the game after the first goal, it was a spineless performance which is indicative of what is going on with the team at present. So you put it down to missing two strikers but funny how we win quite often with ours scoring or doing very much. You have a big squad and other strikers so using injury as an excuse is just lame for a club of your stature.

A big squad full of players that aren't good enough, yes. That's my point. The gulf between Welbeck/Hernandez and Rooney/van Persie is a huge one. Which is lame I agree. Why do you think we've all been desperate for new signings for years now?

The performance wasn't good - at all. The defence was a mess for all of your goals, there were a few bright attacks for us but that was it. Your performance wasn't great, it didn't have to be. You can blame it on gears or whatever you like but if we had our proper strikers it could well have been very different. I can think of at least two occasions where your defenders were all over the place and the ball rolled across the front of your goal. Then Mourinho started putting on defensive midfielders, hardly comfortable, was he.

The comparison with Chelsea's strikers seems a bit daft (considering one got a hat-trick yesterday for starters), but you have far more attacking quality behind the strikers which obviously will win games - we don't, so rely on the strikers. Like last season.

You need to stop clutching at straws. Your defence needs an overhaul, you need some creativity in midfield and come the summer maybe one or two strikers as I can see both of them leaving. Moyes had better sort out his tactics or he’ll be off as well. The immediate problem you have is one of a general malaise and it is one which requires good management. There is still time to sort that out but time is running out fast.

If Moyes asks for help I'm ready to come and offer more advice. :p

What straws am I clutching at? How is saying our two best players being out (players we rely on) makes the game near impossible to win "clutching at straws"? It's just the truth. It shouldn't be the case but it is.

With a fit van Persie and Rooney I think we make the top four without too much trouble. Sadly that reliance has come back to bite us big time this season and further highlights the lack of quality in the squad.
 
After a season of banner showing it was nice to see we've passed on the illness:

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can't even compare the rafa situation to the glazers really

If utd get knocked out the cup and won't make top 4 moyes has to go no questions asked 6 months and hes shown nothing to prove hes capable of the job the squad might not be the best in world but you don't drop from champions to 7th+ it's unheard of , it's likely hes lost the dressing room , poor selections ,training regime seems to be causing injuries and affecting performance? , poor tactics and poor excuses I just see someone who got the job from their mate not footballing merit so hopefully giggs could take over until a good replacement is found
 
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No offence Cosimo but you seem to have only been a hardcore Chelsea fan for the last few years, so what makes you think you can offer insightful analysis into what's going wrong at Man Utd?
Do you know much about Chelsea before Abramovich?

I’m surprised that you can’t work that out. It’s simple really. I go to games, watch on tv, read the press and so am a pundit. This makes me qualified to have an insight just like any other football fan.

I’ve been a fan since way before the Abramovich era. How far back does your
Man U support go?
 
I’m surprised that you can’t work that out. It’s simple really. I go to games, watch on tv, read the press and so am a pundit. This makes me qualified to have an insight just like any other football fan.

I’ve been a fan since way before the Abramovich era. How far back does your
Man U support go?

About 33 years. (It's been questioned before, normally throw away fans on here)

Just wondering why we never saw you in here before, I don't every remember the older threads filled with hundreds of your posts like we get nowadays, did you not know we had a football forum back then?
 
Sad times for united fans.

I don't see MU being title contenders for anything for a very long time playing like this. We need our strikers back badly. Even then, its too late to do anything.

As an Arsenal fan, do feel abit sorry for Moyes, he came in after perhaps the greatest manager of all time retired and expectation was high. I think he should be given/needs another season or two to stamp his mark on the team....however I said the thing to a Man Utd mate who said yeh but he was given a title winning team! lol.
 
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