Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [18th - 23rd October 2019]

[kinetic747]

If you want an example of how VAR should work, watch the TMO in rugby union. If they don't adopt the same standard, they may as well drop it completely. That's not just for this game, it's for almost every game since it's introduction.

 

[adam cool dude]

Liverpool were lucky to get a point there, didn't deserve it on that performance.

That's what wins you leagues.

 

[Mark1989]

I do think ox needs some more starts, last few games Henderson hasn't done enough for me.

 

[BaZ87]

Other than a few 5 minute spells here and there our performance was terrible today. No composure at all, constatly looking for the early cross rather than working better openings. It's easy with hindsight but today was crying out for Keita to come in for one of the midfield 3. Without Salah there's more emphasis on Mane and Firmino to play higher up the pitch and there was just no link between the midfield and attack.

Not really fussed about VAR, everybody knows it's ******** but Atkinson's performance today was as bad as ours. Missing a clear foul for their goal was bad enough but the lack of consistency in his decisions was embarrassing - how he can book Fabinho and then let Rojo and Young off with cynical fouls to stop our attacks and then you had the two James 'injuries', the first was a non head injury and he stops the game when we're in possession then the 2nd, which was a head injury he allows Utd to carry on their attack.

Liverpool were lucky to get a point there, didn't deserve it on that performance.

We literally got ****ed over by the officials. You don't always have to play well to get a point and had Atkinson and VAR not have been a complete waste of space, we'd have won despite playing poorly.

 

[fez]

If you want an example of how VAR should work, watch the TMO in rugby union. If they don't adopt the same standard, they may as well drop it completely. That's not just for this game, it's for almost every game since it's introduction.

They have got a number of decisions wrong this world cup...

 

[bingham67]

Missed opportunity by Liverpool.

Poorest I've seen them play in a long time.

Liverpool have been poor in a few games already this season but pulled it out the bag it was only a matter of time.

 

[kinetic747]

They have got a number of decisions wrong this world cup...

Yes but it's used far more frequently so I think the percentage is pretty low.

 

[manic111]

I'm a Liverpool fan and thought VAR was fine today. The Origi one wasn't a clear foul for me, he got a very light tap and went down easily. The Mane one was handball - letter of the law it's a free kick. The Fred one was his shoulder and not handball.

I get Klopp's point that you need consistency and a ref can't let the game run if VAR won't overturn it unless it's clear and obvious and that needs looking at, but on the letter of the law I thought the big decisions were right.

 

[BaZ87]

Not one ref would look at that video of the challenge on Origi and say it's not a foul. How much clearer does something need to be? There's absolutely no point in using VAR, wasting all the time that comes with it, and then still making the wrong decision.

 

[manic111]

Not one ref would look at that video of the challenge on Origi and say it's not a foul. How much clearer does something need to be?

I honestly don't agree with you. He's had a very minor tap on the knee. I'm not someone who thinks that you have to be kicked hard enough to go down to get a foul, but the touch on Origi isn't enough to impede him in any way at all. If that's a foul then a player putting a hand on another's back is also a foul

Edit: just seen the Deolefeu one yesterday though, that's absurd. Stonewall pen

 

[BaZ87]

I honestly don't agree with you. He's had a very minor tap on the knee. I'm not someone who thinks that you have to be kicked hard enough to go down to get a foul, but the touch on Origi isn't enough to impede him in any way at all. If that's a foul then a player putting a hand on another's back is also a foul

There's a difference between natural contact between two players and kicking somebody. Lindelof kicks Origi, it's a clear foul and I'm certain that not one professional official would look at the video and say it wasn't a foul. This isn't an isolated incident either - we see multiple incidents every weekend and VAR are just point black refusing to overturn anything that isn't a handball that leads to a goal or an offside call. It's become totally pointless.

edit: the laws of the game even specify "kicking or attempting to kick an opponent", as a foul. It's clear as day.

 

[manic111]

There's a difference between natural contact between two players and kicking somebody. Lindelof kicks Origi, it's a clear foul and I'm certain that not one professional official would look at the video and say it wasn't a foul. This isn't an isolated incident either - we see multiple incidents every weekend and VAR are just point black refusing to overturn anything that isn't a handball that leads to a goal or an offside call. It's become totally pointless.

Well, one of my colleagues is a League 2 ref so I'll ask him tomorrow. Not the same standard obviously but I'll be interested in what he says.

My issue with VAR is similar to yours, but from the opposite angle. I think football is so subjective and no matter how many times you watch a video your view is unlikely to change from your first opinion. For instance you and I won't agree on the Origi one and there is no subjective answer as to whether it was right or not.

For me VAR should be reserved to offside, handball, last man decisions, and possibly high/dangerous tackles. Anything else is more subjective and there's no point.

 

[BaZ87]

The only reason to use technology is if we're going to end up getting significantly more correct decisions. I agree with you about offsides and handballs that lead to goals - these are matter of fact decisions and even if the technology is not 100% accurate, it'll be far more accurate than the officials eyesight and the end result will be getting almost all these decisions correct.

Now I'd have no problem with VAR not being used for subjective decisions but the issues we face really aren't as difficult to overcome as you make out. VAR is being controlled by a qualified official and despite what we sometimes might think, they'll all know the laws of the game. For 99% of incidents a professional ref should be able to look at a handful of replays and be able to reach a decision that will be the same as any other ref. And that 1% of incidents, that after those replays they can't make a confident decision on, they stick with the on field decision. The end result will be far more correct deicions being made. Unfortunately not upsetting the on-field ref is more important than making correct decisions though so as long as we can understand why they made the wrong decision, we'll stay with that wrong decision.

 

[omnomnom]

edit: the laws of the game even specify "kicking or attempting to kick an opponent", as a foul. It's clear as day.

This. People seem to forget the attempting to kick part of the law aswell. He's kicked his shin and put his knee up his arse.

On the Mane goal, its offside as per the new "lead to a goal etc" rule but he's also having his shirt taken off him by Lindelof.

 

[IvanDobskey]

Other than a few 5 minute spells here and there our performance was terrible today. No composure at all, constatly looking for the early cross rather than working better openings. It's easy with hindsight but today was crying out for Keita to come in for one of the midfield 3. Without Salah there's more emphasis on Mane and Firmino to play higher up the pitch and there was just no link between the midfield and attack.

Not really fussed about VAR, everybody knows it's ******** but Atkinson's performance today was as bad as ours. Missing a clear foul for their goal was bad enough but the lack of consistency in his decisions was embarrassing - how he can book Fabinho and then let Rojo and Young off with cynical fouls to stop our attacks and then you had the two James 'injuries', the first was a non head injury and he stops the game when we're in possession then the 2nd, which was a head injury he allows Utd to carry on their attack.

We literally got ****ed over by the officials. You don't always have to play well to get a point and had Atkinson and VAR not have been a complete waste of space, we'd have won despite playing poorly.

Completely agree with all of this.

We always get shafted by the officials at old Trafford.

And regarding var, it seems to me the only use it has is to back up the officials when they make a gash decision.

 

[manic111]

edit: the laws of the game even specify "kicking or attempting to kick an opponent", as a foul. It's clear as day.

The laws of the game state that kicking/attempting to kick is a foul if considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force. I think we could debate all day the meaning of careless - in one respect, if you're careful you should never kick an opponent. On the other hand Lindelof was very careful; he went for a tackle, missed, and barely made contact before withdrawing. The important point is the line on the referee's discretion. Football is a game in which most fouls are subjective. Somebody needs to be the ultimate arbiter. Who better than the person stood (hopefully) a few yards away?

If the qualified official on the pitch differs in opinion from the one off it and there is nothing but subjectivity to overcome that point, the decision of the referee should be upheld.

 

[BaZ87]

The laws of the game state that kicking/attempting to kick is a foul if considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force. I think we could debate all day the meaning of careless - in one respect, if you're careful you should never kick an opponent. On the other hand Lindelof was very careful; he went for a tackle, missed, and barely made contact before withdrawing. The important point is the line on the referee's discretion. Football is a game in which most fouls are subjective. Somebody needs to be the ultimate arbiter. Who better than the person stood (hopefully) a few yards away?

If the qualified official on the pitch differs in opinion from the one off it and there is nothing but subjectivity to overcome that point, the decision of the referee should be upheld.

Who better than the person a few yards away? The qualified official sat looking at slow mo replays, with an unimpeded view. And if their opinion differs with the ref on the pitch, it will almost certainly be because they had different information available to them not because they interpret the rules differently.

Yes there is an element of subjectivity but not nearly as much as we might believe and the reason for inconsistent decisions is not because of subjectivity but because officials don't always see things 100% unimpeded and don't have the certainty to make certain decisions.

I'm sure that if you showed all available replays of every major decision this weekend to every PL ref, they would come to the same decision on almost all of them. If we're going to use VAR then these decisions should be overturned or else it's pointless.

 

[McBain]

Seems everyone gets the shaft from VAR eventually, some teams more than others. I think the current implementation is a complete joke, the ref can go and take another look but they've said they won't do that....why?

Secondly, what is it going to take for them to overrule the decision from the pitch? I've seen plenty that are 'clear and obvious', they couldn't be anymore obviously a mistake but still don't get overruled.

 

[BaZ87]

The biggest issue with how they are implementing VAR is that they're not reviewing things on the basis of whether a decision was clearly and obviously wrong but whether they can understand the refs decision making process.

Taking the Watford penalty appeal yesterday an example. If the ref told VAR that he saw the slide tackle but couldn't be 100% satisfied that the Watford player was tripped and therefore couldn't award the pen, under the way VAR is being used that isn't getting overturned, even though the replays clearly show it was a foul. The only way that decision gets overturned by VAR is if the ref categorically states that he saw the incident clearly and he was 100% satisfied that there wasn't a trip.

 

[adam cool dude]

We literally got ****ed over by the officials. You don't always have to play well to get a point and had Atkinson and VAR not have been a complete waste of space, we'd have won despite playing poorly.

A lot of what ifs and buts. Had that goal not counted United would have not sat back and defended the lead and could have scored again. The game was 50-50 up to that point then after that we parked the bus and defended the lead (Which I am sure 99% of teams would do against Liverpool). If it wasn't for Ashley Young and his poor positioning we could have even nicked the win!