Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [19th - 24th April 2019]

Participant said:
LMAO, 4-0 Everton must be amongst the worst results in Man Utd. history :D.
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it's high up the list for sure

that was an utterly pathetic/abject performance....probably one of the worst I've ever seen in my entire life (i've seen 37 years of United games since I was 5 years old)

This one is most certainly on the players....Ole ain't the answer, but he's not the problem either.....FAR FAR to many passengers at United currently, have been for a while.

As much as it pains me to say - City/Liverpool players/team are just amazing to watch at the moment. Best example is probably Aguero - I thought he was super talented, scores some great goals, but fairly lazy when he started at City....In the last 2/3 years, he's been amazing, leads from the front, never stops running, scores etc etc.

United have none of that commitment currently - devoid of any creativity, passion, commitment, quality - it's horrible. Pathetic individuals who would struggle to get a game in any other team in the Premier League (Young, Jones, Matic, Fred, Smalling, Darmien etc etc)

I see nothing but an absolutely battering from City on Wednesday night - The last 3 premier league games a total of 7, yes 7 shots on target (including 2 pens from pogba).....That's just pathetic.

Utterly diabolical at the moment - The run of results when Ole was appointed was just papering over some bloody massive cracks......Wholesale changes required - top to bottom.
 
Judging by the media coverage Everton didn't win that game, United lost it. Hilarious seeing the post match coverage where Sky didn't even mention the word 'Everton' for the first 10 minutes it, the only time they got a mention was when Carragher chucked in a token 20 second comment right at the end. Completely expected of course but jarring nonetheless. The NBC coverage was far more balanced, which is weird given they must cater to more casual fans.
 
booyaka said:
it's high up the list for sure

that was an utterly pathetic/abject performance....probably one of the worst I've ever seen in my entire life (i've seen 37 years of United games since I was 5 years old)

This one is most certainly on the players....Ole ain't the answer, but he's not the problem either.....FAR FAR to many passengers at United currently, have been for a while.

As much as it pains me to say - City/Liverpool players/team are just amazing to watch at the moment. Best example is probably Aguero - I thought he was super talented, scores some great goals, but fairly lazy when he started at City....In the last 2/3 years, he's been amazing, leads from the front, never stops running, scores etc etc.

United have none of that commitment currently - devoid of any creativity, passion, commitment, quality - it's horrible. Pathetic individuals who would struggle to get a game in any other team in the Premier League (Young, Jones, Matic, Fred, Smalling, Darmien etc etc)

I see nothing but an absolutely battering from City on Wednesday night - The last 3 premier league games a total of 7, yes 7 shots on target (including 2 pens from pogba).....That's just pathetic.

Utterly diabolical at the moment - The run of results when Ole was appointed was just papering over some bloody massive cracks......Wholesale changes required - top to bottom.
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The last time united played well was psg away and Pogba was suspended they had that never give up attitude since then Pogba has had his head turned by real and given up imho id get rid hes more problem than hes worth goes missing in big games aswell
 
My current thoughts are:

Solskjaer has to tear up the squad and start again. If Pogba wants to go, get rid of him. Excellent player on his day but not worth the hassle he’s potentially causing. Same for anyone else.

Most of the rest of the squad simply aren’t good enough, so have to go.

Whether Ole is the best man to do this is questionable, but you can never doubt his desire and he’d done an excellent job until recently when the players decided to be lazy again. Not sure what can be done about that.

The whole thing is a disgrace.
 
Robbo said:
My current thoughts are:

Solskjaer has to tear up the squad and start again. If Pogba wants to go, get rid of him. Excellent player on his day but not worth the hassle he’s potentially causing. Same for anyone else.

Most of the rest of the squad simply aren’t good enough, so have to go.

Whether Ole is the best man to do this is questionable, but you can never doubt his desire and he’d done an excellent job until recently when the players decided to be lazy again. Not sure what can be done about that.

The whole thing is a disgrace.
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I'd be tempted now to drop Pogba and some of the other first team players who arnt trying and put youngsters in till end of season now as top 4 unlikely with yesterday's showing got nothing to loose
 
alex h said:
I'd be tempted now to drop Pogba and some of the other first team players who arnt trying and put youngsters in till end of season now as top 4 unlikely with yesterday's showing got nothing to loose
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Should only do that when it’s mathematically impossible. With Arsenal having lost yesterday as well there’s still the possibility however unlikely.
 
When Klopp arrived and instituted a high pressing game, Liverpool got a similar initial bump in results before the players ran out of gas because they don't have the required fitness from a decent pre-season behind them (utd lasted along time given the 4-5 days in dubai in Jan? ), similar happened to City as well I seem to recall and that was with a plan in place beause it was already known for 18 months or so that Pep was coming in.

Didn't expect such a drastic downturn in performances admittedly but this was totally predictable. (doesn't excuse the absolute non performance yesterday from all of the players )

Ole needs belief from the board and given at least the next two full seasons to get this load of wasters out of the club, bring in a lot of youth and decent / hungry young players (even if they are "hungry " Europa level to start with)

I would keep Rashford, Lingard, Lindelöf, Shaw , Dalot and even Fred (latter for the time being at least), and sell / let the rest leave for as decent a fee as we can get over the next two or three windows. Im not 100% convinced about Romero if he were to become 1st choice, but it wouldn't be a bad gamble to take at this point, Joel Periera needs experience but is meant to be a good prospect too so invest the ~£100m from selling DDG if he doesn't want to re-sign and invest that too. McTerminator is a bit basic but good squad material. Im really disappointed in Martial just being so inconsistent (esp given he was out recently for a few weeks with an injury - he is one of the worst offenders since his new contract was signed
 
There needs to be a culture change at the club that is for sure. Getting rid of the big players like Pogba, Sanchez etc should be a first. Trying to keep players like Herrera who always put out in their all. De Gea is about the only one who deserves what he is asking. Hopefully there is still life in Martial as he has plenty of talent he just needs a kick up his back side.

Liverpool have no "superstars" and look how well they are playing. With the exception of Keita they have also bought fantastically well since Klopp has taken over.
 
Converge said:
Should only do that when it’s mathematically impossible. With Arsenal having lost yesterday as well there’s still the possibility however unlikely.
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I'd have more faith in the team that beat psg than carrying on with Pogba not bothering to run and put in a shift and martial seems to have gone backwards since coming back from injury I can't see spurs looseing all there games and Chelsea should win all there's apart from playing us they should win all there other games can you see us beating city and chelsea with that kind of attitude we showed yesterday cus I can't
 
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alex h said:
I'd have more faith in the team that beat psg than carrying on with Pogba not bothering to run and put in a shift and martial seems to have gone backwards since coming back from injury I can't see spurs looseing all there games and Chelsea should win all there's apart from playing us they should win all there other games can you see us beating city and chelsea with that kind of attitude we showed yesterday cus I can't
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You can't just whack on all the young players just because it 'might not happen', that's more of a gamble than leaving the current team in place and what would that do for their confidence 'if' they got annihilated? I'd rather take my chances on a team of bad attitude 'veterans' vs a team of unproven at a crucial part of the season, no matter how much I'd love to see Chong, Gomes, Greenwood etc excel.
 
Converge said:
You can't just whack on all the young players just because it 'might not happen', that's more of a gamble than leaving the current team in place and what would that do for their confidence 'if' they got annihilated? I'd rather take my chances on a team of bad attitude 'veterans' vs a team of unproven at a crucial part of the season, no matter how much I'd love to see Chong, Gomes, Greenwood etc excel.
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Actually, Neville suggests (and who are we to argue) that whether kids win or lose it will show they have (or don't have) the character for the fight, so its as good a test as any. If they are good enough they are old enough.

The club is in a better position once they know these players are up for it or not which ever way it goes.

Not saying it should just be 11 under 18's or whatever, but having a few hungry kids in the team for the next few games woudnt be the worst idea
 
Converge said:
You can't just whack on all the young players just because it 'might not happen', that's more of a gamble than leaving the current team in place and what would that do for their confidence 'if' they got annihilated? I'd rather take my chances on a team of bad attitude 'veterans' vs a team of unproven at a crucial part of the season, no matter how much I'd love to see Chong, Gomes, Greenwood etc excel.
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I don't mean axe all of them mainly Pogba martial Luka the ones that don't put a shift in like i said play the team that beat psg there's players at united who arnt the best players in the world but give 100 percent there the type of players you want at the club .like Adam said liverpool arnt the best players in the world but they give there all and look at the difference it makes when they pull together
 
FrankJH said:
When Klopp arrived and instituted a high pressing game, Liverpool got a similar initial bump in results before the players ran out of gas because they don't have the required fitness from a decent pre-season behind them
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Such a lazy and wrong assessment of Klopp's first half/three quarter season. We didn't get an initial bump in results - I don't think we even got a win until his 4th or 5th game and remained just about as inconsistent as we did under Rodgers during his last 12 months at the club. This idea that we didn't have a decent pre-season behind us under Rodgers (and I assume Utd under Mourinho) is a strange one too - it would have been a different pre-season but it's some statement to say the players were unfit. We only really ran out of steam in the final couple of weeks of the season and there were some mitigating factors in that too - due to runs in the EL and League Cup we ended up playing 61 games that season and a lot of the players that played in those final few games had to play in a lot of those 61 games due to having a lot of injuries in the 2nd half of the season.

At no point in Klopp's first part season or since have we fallen off a cliff. There were inconsistent results, particularly in the first season and 2nd half of his first full season but from day 1 you could see a clear progression and a side taking shape. Klopp didn't have the players to play how he wanted from day 1* so there wasn't any radical changes in system - we played at a higher intensity when we could but mainly it was minor tweaks to our attacking play to get us scoring again. It was only at the start of his first full season that we saw a change in system and clear change in style of play but and that was done through changing positions of certain players and bringing new players in.

*Not specifically you but you hear a lot of people fitness levels or players being lazy as a reason why they don't get around the pitch like a Gini Wijnaldum does but it's not always as simple as that. Benteke and to a lesser extent even Origi were never going to be able to implement Klopp's high press as well as Firmino, no matter how much fitness work they do. Certain players just aren't physically capable to play at high intensisties for prolonged periods. Just like Benteke, Lukaku is just physically too big of a lump and even Pogba too. Yes he may have a questionable attitude but his body isn't made for lots of prolonged high intensisty football.
 
Sorry, disagree with that.

We fell off a cliff in December in his first season and the same happened the season later between January and February. That was 100% down to his style of football and the players running out of gas and/or picking up injuries due to the training.

I remember posting a number of times saying I didn't think he would be a success in England if he didn't adapt his style of football. Thankfully both he and the players adapted and they all look much fitter and they're not running around pressing every single ball like they used to.
 
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Pigeon_Killer said:
Sorry, disagree with that.

We fell off a cliff in December in his first season and the same happened the season later between January and February. That was 100% down to his style of football and the players running out of gas and/or picking up injuries due to the training.

I remember posting a number of times saying I didn't think he would be a success in England if he didn't adapt his style of football. Thankfully both he and the players adapted and they all look much fitter and they're not running around pressing every single ball like they used to.
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We lost 2 from 7 in December in the season he took over - that's hardly falling off a cliff, it was the same inconsistent form we'd shown for the previous 18 months. As I said our overall results weren't much better than they were under Rodgers in his final year at the club - we were still hugely inconsistent, the only noticeable change was the pressing and being able to score without Sturridge on the pitch. It was much of the same in that 2nd half of his first full season - we had a great start and were top of the league going into December but we didn't have the squad to sustain that form - being without Coutinho and Mane for most of it killed us. I'd bet that in the vast majority, if not every game in the 2nd half of that season we ran more than the opposition - the squad wasn't good enough rather than not fit enough.

And there's not been a change in style. We're just a much better side now, dominating the ball so aren't spending 50 minutes of the gaming trying to win it back. Out of possession we do the exact same things.
 
BaZ87 said:
We lost 2 from 7 in December in the season he took over - that's hardly falling off a cliff, it was the same inconsistent form we'd shown for the previous 18 months. As I said our overall results weren't much better than they were under Rodgers in his final year at the club - we were still hugely inconsistent, the only noticeable change was the pressing and being able to score without Sturridge on the pitch. It was much of the same in that 2nd half of his first full season - we had a great start and were top of the league going into December but we didn't have the squad to sustain that form - being without Coutinho and Mane for most of it killed us. I'd bet that in the vast majority, if not every game in the 2nd half of that season we ran more than the opposition - the squad wasn't good enough rather than not fit enough.

And there's not been a change in style. We're just a much better side now, dominating the ball so aren't spending 50 minutes of the gaming trying to win it back. Out of possession we do the exact same things.
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I think the style has changed a little bit, we don't press as much at times. It's like they are conserving energy a bit more and press at opportune times instead of constant heavy metal football. ;)
 
chroniclard said:
I think the style has changed a little bit, we don't press as much at times. It's like they are conserving energy a bit more and press at opportune times instead of constant heavy metal football. ;)
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I agree that we don't press as much, I disagree that it's a change of style. There's clear and obvious reasons why we don't press as much. First and foremost, we dominate games in possession of the ball - iinm we were the first side to go away to a Pep team and have more possession since he started in management or something stupid like that. When you're in possession you're not pressing. Secondly we're going ahead in games more than previously so aren't having to chase games as often so will press less. You then have the fact that opposition teams have cottoned onto the fact that we're pretty dangerous when they have the ball at the back and you see more and more sides go direct early to bypass our press. And lastly, we're better at pressing now and know when to press and when not to. Klopp spoke about his instructions to the players going into his first game as manager - he admitted that he couldn't teach the side to counter-press overnight so basically told them to run their *******s off. So many people think about our pressing as if it's just a case of running around a lot but it's much more complex than that - it's about cutting off passing angles to force the opposition to play the pass you want them to play and then winning the ball back. You don't learn that overnight.

Statsbomb done a piece on our pressing from the first part of this season compared to last season:

https://statsbomb.com/2018/11/liverpool-pressing-concerns/

Our counter-pressing numbers (pressures within 5 seconds of losing the ball) were actually higher at the start of this season (no idea the number as of now) compared to last season, our attacks as a result of counter-pressing were slightly up and when not in the lead our defensive actions were higher than last season also. When in the lead our defensive actions were lower. All this points to a side that's simply better than it was - we're not in situations where we need to press but out of possession and not in the lead, we press as much if not more than ever.
 
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