Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [1st - 2nd September 2012]

A DM is basically any midfielder who can defend well, and is likely to stay back and defend more than another midfielder, you don't need to be a destroyer to be a defensive midfielder, some are some aren't. 90% of what even De Jong does is about his movement and space awareness, he tackles hard when he needs to but his job is cutting off the angles for passes in behind the defence more than anything else.

You can be a defensive midfielder and still burst forward and score goals, you can be a fantastic passer, Gilberto/Tiote would be examples of that, you don't have to be bad going forwards. Its simple that Carrick is poor defensively, and considering he offers almost nothing going forwards he's just a complete waste of a player on the pitch. I think Cleverley maybe got a bit of stick he didn't deserve. From what I could see he spent large portions of time behind Carrick rather than trying to create things infront of Carrick. Seemed to me like Cleverley was for large portions of the game playing the more defensive role, while Carrick did basically smeg all going forwards. Also seemed that maybe Carrick was trying more forward attacking passes, and that is in large part why his passing was so off, because he was passing in a way he basically hasn't played in years.

You don't really need a particular type of midfielder, just a better midfielder. Tiote would do more than Carrick defensively and offensively, even if he was playing the "DM" role he'd still burst forwards now and then and pass forwards much quicker/more effectively.
 
On a day when everyone was bad why am I not surprised to see its Carrick taking all the flack again :o

It's also incredibly stupid to criticise Carrick for not being a destroyer when that's never been part of his game, you might as well criticise Ferdinand for not scoring more goals while you're at it. Fergies the one who failed to sign a midfielder, if people believe we need a tough tackling player in there then the manager is the one to criticise for not signing said player not those that are in there already.

Personally I thought Kagawa was the worst player on the pitch, he constantly got caught in possession or on his heels (it was his mistake that led to the opening goal) and when he did have the ball in threatening areas he failed to link with the other attackers (granted he's only been in the team 2 minutes so that should improve given time)
 
That's exactly my problem with Carrick, as you say he just isn't very good going forwards, and even worse at defending. For a fairly tall player he's also completely useless in the air. In short, Fergie's continued faith in him is somewhat baffling, particularly as he hasn't had a decent season since the year Ronaldo left, and has been downright dreadful the last two seasons. I'd love to have Tiote at United, his work rate and determination would immeasurably improve our midfield. Just another example of a player that United could realistically sign, but Fergie just doesn't seem bothered. He's recognised the need to replace Scholes (presumably Kagawa is the intended long-term replacement), but he's ignored the fact that the midfield would be lacking even if Scholes were 10 years younger.

edit: you say being a destroyer hasn't ever been a part of Carrick's game, yet I truly fail to see what the main aspect of his game is, seeing as he also fails to contribute with goals or assists. There were numerous occasions today where he dithered on the ball and got dispossessed, and after the amount of time he's spent in the EPL he ought to know you don't get that sort of time. Don't get me wrong, he wasn't the worst player on the pitch today (that honour would go to our full-backs), but I just don't think there's space for a player who can't really defend, but also fails to score or assist frequently.
 
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I'm sure I heard Fergie say he would never sign a 'destroyer' type midfielder anyway.

Carrick just doesn't play an 'attractive' game in most people's eyes from what I've heard and therefore takes un-due stick on a regular basis. I'd like a midfielder to have a bit more pace and be more dynamic in most cases but I certainly didn't see him as the problem today for United's lack of control. People seem to also forget Southampton were working their socks off.

He has a role and he plays it 95% to perfection. Whether that role is necessary or suitable is up for debate but that lies with Ferguson, not Carrick.
 
People are going to think I've got a clone account when a newbie comes along and writes something like that :p
 
After driving home I will concede jos going 2 foot in on rvp in the box was a clear pen :p

To be honest we are our own worst enemies, of be back line fonte and fox really lack composure and awareness to compete for 90 mins at this level, I am hoping the new cb guy is better when he's back but we really should have paid up for some one at lb.

We also shot our selves in the foot giving the wrong player the lambert role for the last 15 mins as their back 4 were very very shoddy. Rafael and Evra we're both terrible all game and it was funy to see vidic having the same answer to lambert as most of the champ and l1, just foul him and hope...

Hopefully someone throws a shoe at adtkins to thjnk about the subs for arsenal
 
All I'm trying to say is that if we want to compete with City, we need to be ambitious. I'm not blaming our performance today solely on Carrick, the rest of the midfield were fairly poor, and the defence hadn't played together since last December, but when you compare our midfield to our main rivals, particularly City, it's completely lacking. Would any sane person take any of our central midfielders over Silva or Nasri? Or Mata?

We used to have the best midfield in the prem, but now I'd say ours is at best third of fourth, possibly lower. In terms of strikers and defenders we could still claim to have one of the best in the prem, but certainly not midfield. My only reason for highlighting Carrick is that he is over 30 now and we will need to look at a replacement at some point fairly soon, and I think we could do better.
 
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Tom84 said:
It's also incredibly stupid to criticise Carrick for not being a destroyer when that's never been part of his game, you might as well criticise Ferdinand for not scoring more goals while you're at it. Fergies the one who failed to sign a midfielder, if people believe we need a tough tackling player in there then the manager is the one to criticise for not signing said player not those that are in there already.
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If you're criticising a player, it should be fairly obvious that in most cases you are by extension also being critical of the manager for picking him.

Don't really see why you can't point out a flaw in someones game just because it's always been a flaw. What does Carrick actually add to the team, what does he do that we can't live without? As a link between a good DM and a decent attacking CM I'm sure he'd be fine (though nothing more). Asking him to actually do one of those roles (which is what we are doing) and he's all but useless and totally fair game for criticism.
 
wedgie said:
If you're criticising a player, it should be fairly obvious that in most cases you are by extension also being critical of the manager for picking him.
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Really because all I've read is Carrick this, Carrick that, I haven't read anything about Fergie and his decision to play Carrick as the deepest midfielder or his decision not to sign a midfielder

wedgie said:
Don't really see why you can't point out a flaw in someones game just because it's always been a flaw.
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Because its stupid that's why. Like I said if you're going to criticise Carrick for not flying into tackles then you criticise Ferdinand for not scoring more goals. It's not Ferdinand's game to score goals nor is it Carrick's game to run around like a headless chicken flying into tackles

wedgie said:
What does Carrick actually add to the team, what does he do that we can't live without?
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What he adds that no one else in the squad can is protection in front of the back 4, last season when Anderson and Cleverley were playing yes the attacking football was great but the defence was left with no protection. Scholes can't sit in front of and protect the back 4, Anderson can't do it either and nor can Cleverley.

Carrick has a crap game today but he wasn't alone and he wasn't the worst player on the pitch either contrary to popular (by popular I mean on here) belief
 
JoDaCu said:
I'm sure I heard Fergie say he would never sign a 'destroyer' type midfielder anyway.

Carrick just doesn't play an 'attractive' game in most people's eyes from what I've heard and therefore takes un-due stick on a regular basis. I'd like a midfielder to have a bit more pace and be more dynamic in most cases but I certainly didn't see him as the problem today for United's lack of control. People seem to also forget Southampton were working their socks off.

He has a role and he plays it 95% to perfection. Whether that role is necessary or suitable is up for debate but that lies with Ferguson, not Carrick.
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Tom84 said:
Really because all I've read is Carrick this, Carrick that, I haven't read anything about Fergie and his decision to play Carrick as the deepest midfielder or his decision not to sign a midfielder



Because its stupid that's why. Like I said if you're going to criticise Carrick for not flying into tackles then you criticise Ferdinand for not scoring more goals. It's not Ferdinand's game to score goals nor is it Carrick's game to run around like a headless chicken flying into tackles



What he adds that no one else in the squad can is protection in front of the back 4, last season when Anderson and Cleverley were playing yes the attacking football was great but the defence was left with no protection. Scholes can't sit in front of and protect the back 4, Anderson can't do it either and nor can Cleverley.

Carrick has a crap game today but he wasn't alone and he wasn't the worst player on the pitch either contrary to popular (by popular I mean on here) belief
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I can't remember anyone criticising Carrick for not flying into tackles. The things both of you are patently ignoring is, one, he was making more offensive tackles than normal and Cleverley was frequently behind Carrick, two, Carrick kept missing loads of those passes, he gave away possession, three, you don't have to tackle people to stop them playing, holding them up, turning them back, stopping them making the killer pass, he failed at all of that miserably as well.

Carrick DIDN'T play well today, AND Fergie is playing Carrick when he shouldn't, these aren't related. Carricks passing was poor, his positioning was poor, his defensive work was poor, he was simply poor today.

As for people talking about Fergie's mistake with Carrick, what exactly do you think the 372 pages of whinging about not signing CM's is all about? That is exactly everyone constantly blaming Fergie for not signing 2-3 players to play instead of Carrick/Anderson/Scholes.

Carrick also in no way add's protection for the back four, again I saw Cleverley TRY to do that a lot more than Carrick did today, and Carrick is awful defensively, he's slow, weak and for years I can't remember many if any players having trouble simply running straight past him, he may as well not be there. Scholes is better defensively than Carrick, by a mile, Anderson probably isn't because, frankly, he's terrible
 
Tom84 said:
Really because all I've read is Carrick this, Carrick that, I haven't read anything about Fergie and his decision to play Carrick as the deepest midfielder or his decision not to sign a midfielder
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When the criticism is not just that he had a poor game, but also that he's maybe not the player we need, does it really need to be expicitly stated everytime that Fergie should find someone else to do the job?
Tom84 said:
Because its stupid that's why. Like I said if you're going to criticise Carrick for not flying into tackles then you criticise Ferdinand for not scoring more goals. It's not Ferdinand's game to score goals nor is it Carrick's game to run around like a headless chicken flying into tacklesk has a crap game today but he wasn't alone and he wasn't the worst player on the pitch either contrary to popular (by popular I mean on here) belief
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Is Ferdinand being played as a striker? Not really the same is it, questioning what Carrick brings as a midfielder is valid, as is questiong what he does as a DM when he's our deepest lying centre midfielder. My opinion of him isn't based on one game, just as I'm sure yours isn't. I simply don't rate him, I don't think he brings anything that makes him essential, he doesn't win us games, he doesn't stop us losing games, and despite whatever you think of him, he does not have the one true sign of a great player - fans of clubs other than Utd are not wishing they had Carrick in their team. Infact I'd be shocked if anyone other than Utd fans rate him that highly at all.
Tom84 said:
What he adds that no one else in the squad can is protection in front of the back 4, last season when Anderson and Cleverley were playing yes the attacking football was great but the defence was left with no protection. Scholes can't sit in front of and protect the back 4, Anderson can't do it either and nor can Cleverley.

Carrick has a crap game today but he wasn't alone and he wasn't the worst player on the pitch either contrary to popular (by popular I mean on here) belief
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That I agree with, he might as well do the job ahead of anyone else we have, that doesn't mean he's good at it and it doesn't mean we couldn't bring in a significantly better player.
Pigeon_Killer said:
Carrick: 126 passes attempted, 115 completed = 91% success rate

Just leave that here for someone else.
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If someone that passess 10 yards sideways almost everytime didn't have that sort of completion rate I would be very worried :p.
 
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wedgie said:
he does not have the one true sign of a great player - fans of clubs other than Utd are not wishing they had Carrick in their team. Infact I'd be shocked if anyone other than Utd fans rate him that highly at all.
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Since when was the acid test of how you know you've made it as a footballer the do armchair fans at other clubs want you to sign for them?

Is there a United supporter on the planet that looks at Gareth Barry and wishes we had a bit of that? I'm sure the City supporters who see him week in week out appreciate what he does for them though.

When you have players liked Xabi Alonso talking in glowing terms to the press about lowely Michael Carrick from up north I think it's proof he does more than the usual naive football supporter can appreciate
 
Bucket said:
That's why it happened :p!
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Some bloke was walking to his seat and was in my way as he slipped then I just saw Morg leaping like a salmon to head it in! (my seat is on the opposite side of the pitch)

At least RVP got Scholes influence summed up, he was essential to anything that was happening. United need to sort that out (he shouldn't be their best player on the pitch)...

stand by ward-prowse was motm
 
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I thought Puncheon was your best player today. Looked very dangerous....been thinking of fitting him in to my FF team, seems like he could get a few assists, and he is very cheap.
 
Tom84 said:
Since when was the acid test of how you know you've made it as a footballer the do armchair fans at other clubs want you to sign for them?
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You've missed the point quite badly there, absolutely nothing to do with having made it as a footballer. We have Carrick in there, we could do better, it's that simple. We could have anything up to a great player doing the role, though tbh a half decent DM would be an improvement.

As someone that I assume watched us dominate with the likes of Keane, Ince, Robson, it surprises me that you would take issue with people wanting better than Carrick playing for us :confused:.

Tom84 said:
Is there a United supporter on the planet that looks at Gareth Barry and wishes we had a bit of that? I'm sure the City supporters who see him week in week out appreciate what he does for them though.

When you have players liked Xabi Alonso talking in glowing terms to the press about lowely Michael Carrick from up north I think it's proof he does more than the usual naive football supporter can appreciate
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Whether you like it or not, the great players are the ones most fans would want in their team. Perhaps Barry isn't highly sought after because he's no more a great player than Carrick?
 
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