Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [1st - 2nd September 2012]
- Thread starter Robbo
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Easier said than done i feel
For the first Clyne slipped over.
2nd Ferdinand had a free header, completely unmarked that led to him hitting the post and RVP getting the rebound.
The 3rd was Fonte giving away a needless corner.
Southampton should have improved their defence before the other areas.
Soldato
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Wasn't a walk in the park for city either, and their defence hasn't been decimated at every turn.
Soldato
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I thought that for the first 85 minutes of the game (minus the penalty) Saints defended pretty well against RVP. There were plenty of times where he'd receive a pass and get closed down by two or more Saints players, who would quickly dispossess him. Fortunately for us they started to tire towards the end and had a couple of lapses in concentration. As Saints have found out to their cost, with players of the quality of RVP, Tevez, Nasri etc, you've got to remain focused for the entire game otherwise they'll punish you.
Exactly. The defence lapses would have been finished by any competent striker let a lone RVP
Both games were worth watching today. First Sunday in a while I've been able to sit back and enjoy a 'super sunday' and thankfully got a good one.
Arsenal surprised me with how well they fought with Liverpool's midfield (who up until now have looked a positive for them.) For me, Diaby was a match-winner for them in the middle. Carzola looks awesome but Giroud looks poor in all the matches I've seen which is worrying for Arsenal but still, it's early days.
Gerrard, however looks well out of it these days with his atrocious passing (some of the passes are not even necessary, they are so ridiculous and complex.) Rodgers surely will drop him because there are probably youth players who could put in a better shift than him on current form.
Overall the match itself was pretty competitive and had Liverpool got the first goal it probably would have been different story but credit to Arsenal they put in a real solid away performance.
The other game really got crazy in the 20 minutes. United seem to be still employing their 'zombie passing' tactic until 10 minutes is remaining on the clock and they need goals.
The home side played well but if only Southampton played like that against the 'lower' teams and not just against the big ones, they'd have no bother staying up.
United always looked a decent threat though and with Robin Van Persie up top, it's hardly impossible to forsee what was coming in the end.
That said, the defence definitely need to get some cohesion again but if they can keep that back four fit, that will surely happen.
Arsenal surprised me with how well they fought with Liverpool's midfield (who up until now have looked a positive for them.) For me, Diaby was a match-winner for them in the middle. Carzola looks awesome but Giroud looks poor in all the matches I've seen which is worrying for Arsenal but still, it's early days.
Gerrard, however looks well out of it these days with his atrocious passing (some of the passes are not even necessary, they are so ridiculous and complex.) Rodgers surely will drop him because there are probably youth players who could put in a better shift than him on current form.
Overall the match itself was pretty competitive and had Liverpool got the first goal it probably would have been different story but credit to Arsenal they put in a real solid away performance.
The other game really got crazy in the 20 minutes. United seem to be still employing their 'zombie passing' tactic until 10 minutes is remaining on the clock and they need goals.
The home side played well but if only Southampton played like that against the 'lower' teams and not just against the big ones, they'd have no bother staying up.
United always looked a decent threat though and with Robin Van Persie up top, it's hardly impossible to forsee what was coming in the end.
That said, the defence definitely need to get some cohesion again but if they can keep that back four fit, that will surely happen.
I don't disagree with our defence looking frail at times, but that criticism is missing the point. A weak centre mid can put the best defence under pessure, less control of the game = more pressure, more chances and more opportunities for mistakes to happen.
I can't understand why we only brought in one CB when most Saints fans could see we needed at least 2 CB's and a LB. We also loaned out 2 CB's so have no backups (even though they're no better than League 1 standard).
Concerned about Davis' ability in the Premier League with only a rookie GK for cover.
Always knew that our attackers would be good enough but looks like we'll need to score 3/4 a game to come away with anything. Also why does Adkins feel the need to play JRod out of position? He's not a winger so putting him out there is a waste, especially seeing as he was our record transfer before Gaston.
Overall quite a few negatives but lots of positives. Prowse, Lambert, Lallana, Morgan and Clyne look good with Lee, Cork, Gaston, Mayuka and Yoshida to come into the team.
Concerned about Davis' ability in the Premier League with only a rookie GK for cover.
Always knew that our attackers would be good enough but looks like we'll need to score 3/4 a game to come away with anything. Also why does Adkins feel the need to play JRod out of position? He's not a winger so putting him out there is a waste, especially seeing as he was our record transfer before Gaston.
Overall quite a few negatives but lots of positives. Prowse, Lambert, Lallana, Morgan and Clyne look good with Lee, Cork, Gaston, Mayuka and Yoshida to come into the team.
Soldato
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Yep, agree completely. Controlling possession obviously means the defence has much less to do, and this was noticeable once Scholes came on. Plus, we started with three attack minded midfielders, and as I've been saying for several seasons now, we need a DM. Every other major prem team has one, some even have two or three; City have Rodwell, Barry, and Javi Garcia, Chelsea have Mikel, Arsenal have Diaby (who was immense today), and Spurs have Parker (when he's fit he is one of their best players usually). I think our defence looks so exposed sometimes because we don't have a physical, ball winning midfielder who will sit in front of the back four and protect them.
Agreed. I think it is madness how Fergie hasnt strengethened the midfield for so long.
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Yeah, and it's not as if the players weren't available this summer to do that. I get the feeling that Fergie is trying to copy Barca, playing a midfield three and hoping that they can ping it about skillfully, but Barca got found out last season for their failure to protect the back four and have signed Alex Song to do just that.
On the whole, I think Fergie's signings this summer were pretty solid, but it scares me that at one point he was willing to splurge on Lucas Moura, a completely unproven teenager who plays a position we don't even need, when for £10-15mil we could have bought someone like Song or De Jong, or a similar player from abroad if Arsenal and City didn't want to sell to us.
On the whole, I think Fergie's signings this summer were pretty solid, but it scares me that at one point he was willing to splurge on Lucas Moura, a completely unproven teenager who plays a position we don't even need, when for £10-15mil we could have bought someone like Song or De Jong, or a similar player from abroad if Arsenal and City didn't want to sell to us.
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I'm gonna tease you now.....
Kagawa and Gotze as our two more offensive CM's, with a recognised destroyer as our DM (take your pick from any of the known quality DM's around Europe).
Isn't that an infinately more effective centre mid than we have now?? I know football isn't as easy as picking whoever you want for each position, but it's like we've not even tried to get close to the best, actually it's not 'like' we haven't, we quite clearly haven't.
Kagawa is being shackled by the totally pedestrian Carrick and Cleverley. Carrick is not a DM, he has no presence whatsoever, and I know Cleverley is supposed to be one of our hopes for the future, but I'm not watching him play and thinking there's no one I'd rather have in there, not even close.
Barca prove how impotant an outright DM is, they could easily have 3 great attack minded CM's in there, but they play Busquets instead because they know a DM is more important to the balance of the team.
Kagawa and Gotze as our two more offensive CM's, with a recognised destroyer as our DM (take your pick from any of the known quality DM's around Europe).
Isn't that an infinately more effective centre mid than we have now?? I know football isn't as easy as picking whoever you want for each position, but it's like we've not even tried to get close to the best, actually it's not 'like' we haven't, we quite clearly haven't.
Kagawa is being shackled by the totally pedestrian Carrick and Cleverley. Carrick is not a DM, he has no presence whatsoever, and I know Cleverley is supposed to be one of our hopes for the future, but I'm not watching him play and thinking there's no one I'd rather have in there, not even close.
I think he's grudgingly switching to 433/451, what chance do 2 in the middle have when almost all the top teams are now playing 433?
Barca prove how impotant an outright DM is, they could easily have 3 great attack minded CM's in there, but they play Busquets instead because they know a DM is more important to the balance of the team.
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That has to start from the back though. Evra, Vid and Ferdinand were all guilty today of not playing the ball to feet when an easy ball was on. All three were very wasteful with possession. You could argue about Vidic being out and he is still getting his match sharpness/fitness.
I know the transfer thread is closed but what do LFC fans think of this
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1149317/liverpool-considering-michael-owen-deal?cc=5739
It's not exactly true to say it 'has' to start from the back. Obviously the stronger each unit is, the stronger the team as a whole is. But while a good midfield can protect a poor defence, a weak midfield will do nothing but expose even the best defence. Our defenders could be impeccable from now on, it won't prevent the players directly infront of them being average.
The saying that games are won and lost in the middle is older than any of us for a good reason.
The saying that games are won and lost in the middle is older than any of us for a good reason.
Soldato
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Busquets isn't really a DM though, he's not actually that dissimilar to Carrick in a lot of ways, he just maybe looks a bit better because he's playing alongside better midfielders than Carrick plays with. In my opinion they're both a bit pants
Barca have recognised their failings last season and attempted to fix it by signing Song. It may not work, but at least they've recognised the problem, or part of it. Fergie just seems to completely ignore it. I agree with Loki to an extent, but it was difficult for the defence today because they haven't played together since December last year. However, I think a midfield who was able to retain possession better and break things down when Saints did get the ball back would have made things much easier on that back four today. With all due respect to Saints, even away from home we should be dominating possession against a team like them. City had close to 80% possession by half time against QPR, and they didn't even really play that well, and Barca and Real regularly get possession figures of 70% or more.
I know we've always played a quick counter-attacking game, but against smaller teams I'd expect home and away to be dominating possession and bossing the midfield, and for the past couple of seasons I just don't think United have done that properly.
Barca have recognised their failings last season and attempted to fix it by signing Song. It may not work, but at least they've recognised the problem, or part of it. Fergie just seems to completely ignore it. I agree with Loki to an extent, but it was difficult for the defence today because they haven't played together since December last year. However, I think a midfield who was able to retain possession better and break things down when Saints did get the ball back would have made things much easier on that back four today. With all due respect to Saints, even away from home we should be dominating possession against a team like them. City had close to 80% possession by half time against QPR, and they didn't even really play that well, and Barca and Real regularly get possession figures of 70% or more.
I know we've always played a quick counter-attacking game, but against smaller teams I'd expect home and away to be dominating possession and bossing the midfield, and for the past couple of seasons I just don't think United have done that properly.
Wrong, he's a DM, he's just not the kind of DM you want............. me neither .
Forgetting the results, if you look at how our games go these days it tends to be one of two ways - against the better teams we get outplayed (sometimes embarrassingly so). Against the weaker teams, the games we would dominate a few years ago, they're much closer, much more back and forth, could go either way games. Luckily we do have enough quality players that can still make the difference quite often, but it's now rare for us to win and be clearly the only team that was ever going to win.
.The problem with blaming the defence is this, are we talking about the game today alone, or the last year or two of performances? We've been unable to consistently control games for at least that long.
Forgetting the results, if you look at how our games go these days it tends to be one of two ways - against the better teams we get outplayed (sometimes embarrassingly so). Against the weaker teams, the games we would dominate a few years ago, they're much closer, much more back and forth, could go either way games. Luckily we do have enough quality players that can still make the difference quite often, but it's now rare for us to win and be clearly the only team that was ever going to win.
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Soldato
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He's completely useless at DM though lol, he's one of the biggest wimps in football. I rarely see him do an effective challenge, and he goes down at the drop of a hat. What I envision in a DM is someone like Essien back when he was good several years ago at Chelsea, somebody who is brutal but fair when tackling, who works really hard, can at least pass the ball short, and allows the full-backs to bomb on without the defence worrying it'll be overrun. In short, Busquets does none of those things. The only reason he gets away with it and Carrick doesn't is because Barca keep the ball better than we do lol.