Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [20th - 21st September 2014]

BaZ87 said:
Utd can afford to spend big again next season if they miss out on the CL and they only did this year because they missed out. While Utd were consistently making the top 4 there was no reason for the Glazers to allow big money to be spent.

Utd will keep spending to get back into the CL because the tv money, increased exposure etc is worth more than what they'll spend. The challenge will be keeping and attracting players like Di Maria.


You should know that you can't always just look at results when comparing the 2.

Moyes wasn't just getting poor results but there was little to no positives to take from anything at Utd and you couldn't see what he was building towards. Utd were drifting towards mediocrity. It's still early and a lot has gone wrong but Utd appear to have more about them now than under Moyes. You've got to give it a few more months before you can begin to judge LvG though.

It was no different to people comparing Benitez's first season to Houllier's last or the morons comparing Rodgers to Hodgson in his first season too. In Benitez's and Rodgers' first seasons the results weren't always there but you could see the club was moving forward and something was being built. Even if Utd don't break back into the top 4 this season you can't simply judge LvG on that. It's about how things happen and what are the indications on how things will progress.
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Of course they weren't building towards anything, they went out and panic bought him Fellaini at the end after failing to get anyone else. (Or felt the team didn't need more players).

That said it isn't really Moyes or LVG fault the club ended in this situation they've had to ***** loads, its fergusons
 
There's definitely an arguement that Fergie left behind a squad on it's last legs but it's not a big enough arguement to justify the collapse we saw.

The person he followed and the circumstances he took over in undoubtedly didn't help Moyes but everything that could go wrong went wrong under him. There was nothing positive for Utd fans to cling on to. They were getting worse and worse as the season went on.
dannyjo22 said:
He wasn't building anything, they as a club/moyes failed to buy anyone but Fellaini yet LVG has bought in some real class. At the risk of being labelled a Moyes sympathiser comparisons were being made already at this time for Moyes so it's not to be unexpected that LVG get's the same treatment. Especially when he has spent far far more than Moyes did.

Moyes "tried" to make United hard to beat, is LVG even trying? ;)
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Who was to blame for the signings or lack of signings last summer is open to debate. Look at the players Moyes did sign though, Fellaini and Mata. Fellaini to Utd made zero sense no matter which way you looked at it. And while Mata was/is a good player, you're always asking where he fits in.

I didn't see any direction from Moyes. He was stuck between how he wanted to play/how he played with Everton and how he thought he was supposed to play at Utd.

You're right Moyes was under scrutiny right from the outset but that's expected when he was taking over from Taggart but also because (plainly obviously in my opinion) Moyes was a massive gamble. Because of how far Utd fell under Moyes and because of LvG's reputation he's always going to be given more time to prove himself.
 
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Mata seemed like a feel good signing, obviously he's a great player but seemed United signed him because he was available and they were absolute garbage and perhaps hoping it could've had the ozil effect on the club

BaZ87 said:
There's definitely an arguement that Fergie left behind a squad on it's last legs but it's not a big enough arguement to justify the collapse we saw.
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Think you underestimate how many points Ferguson got them from the fear he created around playing manu (mainly in the league) and how it made teams crumble against them, particularly at OT. (Liverpool doing it numerous times.)
 
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dannyjo22 said:
He wasn't building anything, they as a club/moyes failed to buy anyone but Fellaini yet LVG has bought in some real class. At the risk of being labelled a Moyes sympathiser comparisons were being made already at this time for Moyes so it's not to be unexpected that LVG get's the same treatment. Especially when he has spent far far more than Moyes did.

Moyes "tried" to make United hard to beat, is LVG even trying? ;)
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You appear to be comparing a back four that remained as Vidic Ferdinand Evra and either Raf, Jones or Smalling for most games at the start of last season, meaning one change a game in some games, to a defence that has been Blackett, Evans, Smalling, Jones, Lingard, Young and Valencia changing effectively every game due to injuries with Rojo having played two games so far.

Are you really trying to compare a settled premiership defence that won the title with the same line up the year before that have played together for years with a huge amount of experience with youth players, wingers who aren't experienced defensively and youth players in their first games, who also change by the game? Really?


Then again, you're insisting Martinez has made the defence worse as if somehow had Moyes stayed Distin would somehow not be 36 years old, Jagielka 32, Howard 35. Yup, if Moyes was in charge they wouldn't continue to age, and Jagielka missing a large period of time due to injury at his age, usually players come back really strong after long term injury at 32 years old.

The CB partnership Moyes left was on it's last legs, Jagielka and Distin would have regressed under Moyes as well.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Martinez



No but it's just like Martinez. Such a lovely bloke and we won't get more exciting football but in a season he has destroyed the solid base. Rivals will love him because when we play big teams we won't park the bus, but then they would they get 3 points.

I don't want him to go, as I say we won't get better but he's clearly not good enough to get the best out of defenders or even set up a confident back four, top clubs would be mad to take him. I said time and time again last year when he had to rebuild the defense himself through injuries we would be in the ****. Which of our players have actually gotten better under him? Then compare it to the ones that have got worse.

Then he comes out with....

"It was very uncharacteristic of us to concede three goals with three errors, but even then the character was incredible and we almost managed to get something out of the game."

Has he taken a bang on the head? 13 goals conceded in 5 games, 11 goals conceded at home. Top top manager in the waiting there.
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To be fair he is right, usually it's 2 goals from 2 shots on target, or occasionally 6 goals from 8 shots on target.

*sigh*
 
BaZ87 said:
You're right Moyes was under scrutiny right from the outset but that's expected when he was taking over from Taggart but also because (plainly obviously in my opinion) Moyes was a massive gamble. Because of how far Utd fell under Moyes and because of LvG's reputation he's always going to be given more time to prove himself.
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Moyes was a massive failure we all know that now, even me ;) If LVG spends what he's spent, not strengthening the areas we all know are a mess and he doesn't get top 4, well then it would be impossible to argue that he isn't a massive failure too.

How much did he spend in total? If he can't split that up to get a top 4 side then he's failed, especially as I bet another 50m+ get's spent in jan. I knew it wouldn't be long before the world cup excuse was pedalled out, if he didn't know which players were shot at united then he's been out of touch with club football.
 
Purdy said:
Mata seemed like a feel good signing, obviously he's a great player but seemed United signed him because he was available and they were absolute garbage and perhaps hoping it could've had the ozil effect on the club
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Utd certainly needed a lift last January but with the squad Utd have/had, Mata just didn't seem right.
 
BaZ87 said:
You're right Moyes was under scrutiny right from the outset but that's expected when he was taking over from Taggart but also because (plainly obviously in my opinion) Moyes was a massive gamble. Because of how far Utd fell under Moyes and because of LvG's reputation he's always going to be given more time to prove himself.
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Honestly I think Moyes didn't have the balls to effectively say Fergie was wrong. I genuinely think Moyes thought pushing out say Cleverley, Anderson, Carrick, Valencia or any number of players that needed pushing out would be effectively saying Fergie made a mistake with those players and he was simply unwilling to do that. LVG came in and the difference is he has balls. He had no problem saying Welbeck isn't good enough, this is effectively saying Welbeck at 85k a week was a mistake by Fergie.

One manager was scared to make that statement and move on the half the team that needed it, LVG hasn't shown an ounce of fear.

As above, Moyes made no significant changes in the team at all, as such you were judging Fergie's squad and doing significantly worse with the same team within a single season is poor. LVG isn't using that squad, you can't change half the starting line up and expect the team to play great straight away, anyone that does is deluded. LVG could fail badly and have rebuilt with the wrong players. Time will tell, but big changes take time, however Utd required it. Matching Moyes in playing similarly poorly.

If you take what Moyes did and throw in a completely changed defence and using youth players due to injuries... you'd have had a significantly worse performance from the team.
 
dannyjo22 said:
:D

Better hope we don't let anyone get 10 shots on target, especially if it Liverpool next week :(
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If Raheem/Gerrard/Hendo play the way they did vs Wham you'll be sweet, a Naismith hat trick wouldn't surprise me

Hopefully Lallana/Coutinho/Studge all start. Despite Coutinho being off he hasn't gone hiding during matches, unfortunately he's suited to good movement in front of him which hasn't happened at all bar Raheem and even then its been reallllly congested with them two on the left side all the time.
 
Purdy said:
Think you underestimate how many points Ferguson got them from the fear he created around playing manu (mainly in the league) and how it made teams crumble against them, particularly at OT. (Liverpool doing it numerous times.)
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I don't underestimate it. I even said as much last season. Again though, it still doesn't justify going from 1st to 7th.
dannyjo22 said:
Moyes was a massive failure we all know that now, even me ;) If LVG spends what he's spent, not strengthening the areas we all know are a mess and he doesn't get top 4, well then it would be impossible to argue that he isn't a massive failure too.

How much did he spend in total? If he can't split that up to get a top 4 side then he's failed, especially as I bet another 50m+ get's spent in jan. I knew it wouldn't be long before the world cup excuse was pedalled out, if he didn't know which players were shot at united then he's been out of touch with club football.
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I agree that if Utd don't make the top 4 there can't be any excuses. Like you say, with the money they've spent it's difficult to justify having such weaknesses in the squad. I said in the transfer thread that given the money Utd have thrown around on players they didn't desperately need, why didn't they spend ott getting their first choice (or at least better) CB & DM.

My post that you originally quoted wasn't looking at LvG in isolation though but the inevitable comparisons to Moyes. It's not as simple as the results at this early stage.
 
I'm so glad Suarez has ****ed off, he could have got 6 on his own against our defense right now, then again he would have been banned. I fancy a fiver on Balotelli to get sent off. He's stupid enough to think that would make him a hero.:D
 
dannyjo22 said:
Moyes was a massive failure we all know that now, even me ;) If LVG spends what he's spent, not strengthening the areas we all know are a mess and he doesn't get top 4, well then it would be impossible to argue that he isn't a massive failure too.

How much did he spend in total? If he can't split that up to get a top 4 side then he's failed, especially as I bet another 50m+ get's spent in jan. I knew it wouldn't be long before the world cup excuse was pedalled out, if he didn't know which players were shot at united then he's been out of touch with club football.
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and which area is it we all knew needed strengthening that he didn't exactly? Attack, Falcao, Di Maria, midfield Herrera, Blind, defence, Rojo, Shaw.

AS he strengthened every area of the pitch except goalkeeper.... you're either wrong or suggesting they needed a better keeper?

Or are you just ignoring that the first team defence Rafael, Vidic, Rio, Evra is 75% gone and 25% injured till the last game. What about the back up, Jones, Smalling, Evans, 66% injured 33% ****, what about the OMG there is no one else so we have to try them, Blackett, Lingard, Valencia... oh right, that is who has been playing.

Name a team where the first team left, the back up is injured and 3-4 such players have been brilliant in the premier league before?
 
BaZ87 said:
I agree that if Utd don't make the top 4 there can't be any excuses. Like you say, with the money they've spent it's difficult to justify having such weaknesses in the squad. I said in the transfer thread that given the money Utd have thrown around on players they didn't desperately need, why didn't they spend ott getting their first choice (or at least better) CB & DM.
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Yep he's responsible for making those replacements and he had more than enough warning about Rio and Vidic. I can understand why Manu fans might be livid, not filling those roles and finding a better CBs/DM while spending hundreds of millions wouldn't fill me with joy either. Again, he couldn't have had a better 6 games to start.
 
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This is bizarre, Everton and Liverpool fans discussing Moyes and United, and doing it in a sensible and accurate way. It's brilliant, I thought there were too many WUMs on here so gave the football stadium a break for a bit, but this is exactly the kind of discussion I like. Happy to constructively talk about any team without resorting to **** taking.

The United situation isn't entirely dissimilar to what's going on with Tottenham and Liverpool. Any time you have a serious change in personnel or a new manager, it's going to cause a certain amount of instability. Brendan Rodgers is trying to adapt to life without Suarez, having loads of new signings in his place, surviving without Sturridge at the moment, and having to move away from the counter-attacking style they used so well last year. Equally, Pochettino is trying to get used to the players he's got at Spurs and I think they are still probably struggling to utilise all the players they bought when they sold Bale.

Not quite sure what's going on with Everton at the moment, they have a pretty similar team to last year and yet that defensive solidity isn't there at the moment, but I'm sure things will improve for all the above teams. It's very early days still.
 
dannyjo22 said:
Yep he's responsible for making those replacements and he had more than enough warning about Rio and Vidic. I can understand why Manu fans might be livid, not filling those roles and finding a better CBs/DM while spending hundreds of millions wouldn't fill me with joy either. Again, he couldn't have had a better 6 games to start.
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The vast majority of fans are quite happy to give him time, he said himself it'll take a good 3 months for things to start working properly, so there should be improvements then. Chelsea aside, the start of the season has been a very mixed bag for a lot of teams, it doesn't mean a great deal yet.

We should have bought another older, experienced centre back though, I do think that. I'm sure we could have found someone. It'd help if our defenders weren't always injured so we have to keep fielding different defences. :/
 
I'm really surprised LvG didn't attempt to sign one of the Holland defenders from his WC squad, particularly Vlaar. He looked good for them at the WC, and at 29 he'd be young enough to be decent for another 3 or 4 years. He probably wouldn't have been that expensive too.
 
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