Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [30th October - 3rd November 2015]

I don't need to make up my mind on anything. I simply said Moyes was likely involved in the Rooney deal. When a deal is up and about to be renewed you have power to effect it, when the deal is less than 2 years into a 5 year deal you have no power to effect it. Moyes and LVG were in different positions. Likewise I no where at all said he sat them down and decided how much to pay him, you are the first person to say anything like that.

He was the manager there, he likely had a say in if he was kept and how important he deemed Rooney was to the team which will have an effect on negotiations. He may well have asked the board to go with 300k a week. Many managers ARE involved in that level of the negotiation because it effects their wage bill and their future plans. You will have managers work with the board and say, offer up to X because I need Y for that player next year we're planning to get, or get him at all costs and we'll save elsewhere.

Moyes looked and acted overawed at the club, he has never in his career faced a agent putting pressure on him to sign a 200k+ a week deal or he'll walk. He also seemed throughout the year scared to make changes, ship out players or buy new stars who would require displacing existing players. He looked to me like he didn't want to make changes to Fergie's team as much as he could get away with it anyway.

So yes I think he probably over estimated Rooney, was scared to lose him, told the board to get him at any cost and probably didn't have the stones to bluff Rooney.

Reality is you nor I have any clue who was involved at what stages and whose idea the fee was. I do think Moyes would have had a fairly large effect in his opinion on Rooney and how important he'd be and as such I think Moyes got that call completely wrong.

Rooney was never really class, he was always a limited footballer, he's not a top passer, he's not a top finisher, he's not an intelligent footballer. All of his time as a truly effective/dangerous player he was pace, power and that was it. Not skill, not finesse, pace and power. He's lost that and at his age, in his physical condition those ain't coming back.

If Utd didn't offer Rooney more than 150k, he'd probably have signed or they'd have got shot of him to MLS/China/some idiot team and today they'd be patting themselves on the back. Before locking him in to a wage that no other club in the world will match to bring him in, the club had options. Today LVG doesn't have the same options because the club is stuck with him. He'll make what, another 50mil off the club before his contract is up. Suggesting we can't judge LVG/Moyes differently when the situation is completely different is just daft.
 
drunkenmaster said:
I don't need to make up my mind on anything. I simply said Moyes was likely involved in the Rooney deal. When a deal is up and about to be renewed you have power to effect it, when the deal is less than 2 years into a 5 year deal you have no power to effect it. Moyes and LVG were in different positions. Likewise I no where at all said he sat them down and decided how much to pay him, you are the first person to say anything like that.
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Your vilification of Moyes says it really. Of course LVG can do something, put him on the transfer list, sell him and compensate him if other clubs don't want to spend 300k.

drunkenmaster said:
He was the manager there, he likely had a say in if he was kept and how important he deemed Rooney was to the team which will have an effect on negotiations. He may well have asked the board to go with 300k a week. Many managers ARE involved in that level of the negotiation because it effects their wage bill and their future plans. You will have managers work with the board and say, offer up to X because I need Y for that player next year we're planning to get, or get him at all costs and we'll save elsewhere.
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Managers are not involved in that level of negotiations, it's the club that deals with negotiations. A manager will tell the club what players he wants and club will then find out if it's possible or not. It's not professional for everyone to know each others salaries.

drunkenmaster said:
Moyes looked and acted overawed at the club, he has never in his career faced a agent putting pressure on him to sign a 200k+ a week deal or he'll walk. He also seemed throughout the year scared to make changes, ship out players or buy new stars who would require displacing existing players. He looked to me like he didn't want to make changes to Fergie's team as much as he could get away with it anyway.

So yes I think he probably over estimated Rooney, was scared to lose him, told the board to get him at any cost and probably didn't have the stones to bluff Rooney.
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Can you blame Moyes for being overawed? You wouldn't if you had been working your whole life for a job like that? He had 7 months there, 1 summer, hardly time ship players in and out eh. That would be good, walk straight into UTD and say your selling Rooney, would that really fly? Moyes signed Mata in Jan, good signing. He overpaid on Fell, fine, it was always going to be the case though..when you nick players from your former club.

drunkenmaster said:
Rooney was never really class, he was always a limited footballer.
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I can't cope with you when you say stuff like this, it's almost as if youre trying to wind me up... :(
 
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Bellerin was outstanding again yesterday, chasing back to tackle Gomis and that block where he went into the post shows such desire. His defensive side is improving, going to be a perfect mix of attack and defense soon. Debuchy must be gutted he got injured. If we can win at home vs Spurs next week we have a nice run playing 3 of the bottom 5 as well as West Brom. Hopefully we can pull away at the top of the table.

Rooney is a joke. Martial must be fuming he's been out on the left although from what I've seen he's still managed to be their best player. If he was playing through the middle I'm sure he'd have at least scored a couple.
 
Clipsey said:
Very strange sometimes how players can have such a dip in form.
Hazard last season was immense! Today:
Zero shots
Zero chances created
Zero take ons completed
Zero crosses

Rooney however I don't think it's form, I think he's genuinely done.
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For all Ozil faults. I don't think Ozil has ever played that badly for arsenal. Do people still think hazard is better than Ozil?
 
People are discussing £200k+ /week like its a lot of money for these clubs - when it really is not. The TV deal that came in last time (let alone the one that's just about to start) make this kind of wage more than manageable for majority of the European clubs. (not just top 4), with the sponsorships (kit and shirt deals etc) becoming huge numbers also for more and more clubs, these wages aren't really that much (for instance even with Rooney on that amount, Utd are still only paying ~50% of their turnover on wages which is by no means excessive)

jonneymendoza said:
For all Ozil faults. I don't think Ozil has ever played that badly for arsenal. Do people still think hazard is better than Ozil?
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Quite comical you are even making a comparison

Even IF Hazard has had 11 comparable games this season, he still wouldn't have played as badly as Ozil did last season for the majority

Hazard may well be in bad form (with team mates also in bad form, which doesn't help at all) but this is only one season out of many that Hazard hasn't lit up MOTD nearly every week

Ozil can only dream of the form Hazard has had over the last few seasons
 
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FrankJH said:
People are discussing £200k+ /week like its a lot of money for these clubs - when it really is not. The TV deal that came in last time (let alone the one that's just about to start) make this kind of wage more than manageable for majority of the European clubs. (not just top 4), with the sponsorships (kit and shirt deals etc) becoming huge numbers also for more and more clubs, these wages aren't really that much (for instance even with Rooney on that amount, Utd are still only paying ~50% of their turnover on wages which is by no means excessive)
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What? There's probably only 5 clubs in the PL that are paying players £100k per week, let alone the £200k you mention or the £250-300k Rooney's reportedly earning.

That said, Utd paying somebody £250-300k isn't the issue. The issue is whether Rooney is worth it. This isn't with the benefit of hindsight because I said so at the time but giving Rooney that contract was mental. It was hard to justify that he was worth that much at the time and he was never a player that was going to age well. He's an old 30 year old - he started so young, he's had his fair share of injuries and most importantly, he doesn't look after himself.
 
Is right Gerard. van Aanholt had no idea then. Hopefully we'll get a few more in before half time.
 
Trusty said:
Your vilification of Moyes says it really. Of course LVG can do something, put him on the transfer list, sell him and compensate him if other clubs don't want to spend 300k.
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Ade to City, cheap fee, no actual cash sent to Spurs, it was 10-15mil striker for 5mil with the 10mil bumping his salary to get Adebayor to agree to leave. Rooney is currently a 5mil striker(for commercial value alone) and is on 15mil a year for another 3+ years, meaning Utd would have to sell him for nothing AND give a club 10mil a year in wages to get Rooney to leave. Most importantly it happened in the final year of his contract, 99.999% of the time a player is pushed out his wages are subsidised to the smaller club by reducing the transfer fee.

This is easy and simple for LVG to fix? LVG can't simply get rid of Rooney, you just don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Managers are not involved in that level of negotiations, it's the club that deals with negotiations. A manager will tell the club what players he wants and club will then find out if it's possible or not. It's not professional for everyone to know each others salaries.
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Sorry but more utter nonsense, one, a lot of managers DO get involved on that level, it's critical for most managers to have a fairly fixed transfer/wage budget and knowing how much will be given to one player directly effects future transfers, other new contracts. Most managers DO have involvement in approving/veto'ing such deals only a few don't, those at Real, Barca, Bayern, where the board has total control of transfers.

It's unprofessional for everyone to know each others salaries? The only people that push this concept are bosses who want to get away with underpaying as many staff as possible. That people are silly enough to buy into the corporate culture of screwing yourself out of a fair wage, it's embarrassing.

Either way this isn't what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is a manager knowing everyone's wages when it's entirely dependent on his job to access the value of players in which wages are a key factor. Is Nani worth keeping, depends entirely on his wage, he's on 40k a week and is asking for 50k, sign him up for 5 years. He's on 120k and wants another 5 years on that, let him go. Managers who make decisions on who to sell, who to keep, it's incredibly important for managers to know what their players are on.


Can you blame Moyes for being overawed? You wouldn't if you had been working your whole life for a job like that? He had 7 months there, 1 summer, hardly time ship players in and out eh. That would be good, walk straight into UTD and say your selling Rooney, would that really fly? Moyes signed Mata in Jan, good signing. He overpaid on Fell, fine, it was always going to be the case though..when you nick players from your former club.
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yes I can, if you're not going to have the balls to do the job, don't take the job.
 
cm1179 said:
united 1 shot on target yesterday

#problems
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And LVG thinks that bringing in another striker will help. It's not the players that are the problem (Rooney excepted, he shouldn't be playing), it's the way LVG has them playing. There's no penetration, no one making runs, ball into feet constantly. I used to love watching United play, all pace, movement and quick passing. Now it's nothing but a chore. They're just so SLOW.
 
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