Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [4 - 8th May 2013]

[Robbo]

I think he's obviously the best manager ever at league competitions, but it seems that comes at the cost of having a reliably strong first eleven, we're usually patchy in that area, or have been more recently.

Hopefully it will be addressed in the summer as we're not far off really. It sounds like it might be.

 

[semi-pro waster]

And we have no consistency in team or shape etc. Against the Aston Villa's of the world you can do that. Against a good team, good luck.

You'd probably not find too many people to argue with the assertion that Man Utd haven't been great all this season but until two games ago they could still have set a record points total for the EPL, by most measures that's pretty consistent.

Let's be clear. Raphael deserved the red. Luiz did not cheat, all he did was laugh at how ridiculous the situation was.

I've only seen replays but it looked like he stayed down for quite a while and was grinning while facing away from the referee. Cheating might be debatable but it certainly didn't look like he was injured so to stay on the ground until another player was sent off is a touch dubious.

However Raphael should have been red carded for the kick with or without David Luiz's actions - it's just that how Luiz behaved made it look as if he made much more of the situation than was necessary.

He's not the greatest manager of all time that's why .

*Yes I'm wearing my flame proof suit, come at me United fans.

Who would you say is the greatest manager of all time then? Shankley? Stein? Trappatoni? Someone else?

 

[drunkenmaster]

You'd probably not find too many people to argue with the assertion that Man Utd haven't been great all this season but until two games ago they could still have set a record points total for the EPL, by most measures that's pretty consistent.



I've only seen replays but it looked like he stayed down for quite a while and was grinning while facing away from the referee. Cheating might be debatable but it certainly didn't look like he was injured so to stay on the ground until another player was sent off is a touch dubious.

On the first point, no, consistency in winning isn't consistency of football, you've had a few games you've played fantastic football, interspersed with games they played diabolically awful football and games they've just played half decently. They haven't played consistently good football throughout the year, I wouldn't even say on average they've put in good performances.

As for points totals, points totals mean nothing unless Utd were playing the same teams, with the same players, the same managers and same point in time as previous points totals. Getting 80 points this year doesn't mean a team has been better than a team that only got 60 points a decade ago. The league is woeful this year, the overall quality up and down the league is an utter joke compared to the league Chelsea got their record in, or Utd got their previous highest points totals. The fact that a team as poor overall as Utd was on course for the highest points total is merely a reflection of how poor the league has become, not a reflection of how good Utd are.


With luiz, he wasn't hiding his smile, the linesman could see, has no one even been hit by a friend and laughed instead of reacted, sometimes life is funny and you laugh. He made no attempt to hide it, he quite obviously didn't pretend he was in more pain than he was, he got kicked, natural reaction is to protect where you got hit and wait to see how bad the pain is. His reaction was to laugh, hold where he was kicked, and thats it.

He could have covered his face, rolled around screaming, which is pretty much the bog standard reaction in these situations, he DIDN'T do that, he just laughed, yet people are reacting like somehow that is worse, when its far more truthful and not at all cheating.

 

[The Running Man]

Without beating about the bush let's just think about yesterday's line up and the lack of quality we had.

Cleverly - bad all game, when Anderson makes you look bad...
Jones - old carp head isn't a good player. Who thought he could do center mid is beyond me
Giggs - he's nearly 40 and looked it.
Valencia - another workman like performance with absolutely zero end product. Again.

You just can't throw these players in to midfield and expect to win. Plan b? Buttner on the left wing .. srsly?

Playing 451 at home is far too respectful to your opponents anyway. How about taking the game to the other team and dictating how they play?

 

[Pighardia]

We've reached a stage where Rafael can get a red card for that and no one even disputes it.... Sad times

 

[semi-pro waster]

On the first point, no, consistency in winning isn't consistency of football, you've had a few games you've played fantastic football, interspersed with games they played diabolically awful football and games they've just played half decently. They haven't played consistently good football throughout the year, I wouldn't even say on average they've put in good performances.

As for points totals, points totals mean nothing unless Utd were playing the same teams, with the same players, the same managers and same point in time as previous points totals. Getting 80 points this year doesn't mean a team has been better than a team that only got 60 points a decade ago. The league is woeful this year, the overall quality up and down the league is an utter joke compared to the league Chelsea got their record in, or Utd got their previous highest points totals. The fact that a team as poor overall as Utd was on course for the highest points total is merely a reflection of how poor the league has become, not a reflection of how good Utd are.

While it's obviously fun to argue against a different point I've not suggested that Utd were good this season. I've said that by winning more games than anyone else this season they've demonstrated consistency. The points total is a non-subjective measure of how consistent the team is - at the risk of using a cliché you beat who is in front of you, they might be better, worse or the same as a team from a decade ago but the subjective measure of the quality of the team you've just beaten doesn't matter regarding whether the points count or not.

You can have a subjective debate about whether it's more or less of an achievement and how good the league is relative to other seasons but that's a different thing to noting that the team has been consistent in gaining results.

 

[Tom84]

We've reached a stage where Rafael can get a red card for that and no one even disputes it.... Sad times

No we just don't moan about every decision that goes against us like Purdy and his Liverpool friends do

 

[Andybtsn]

No we just don't moan about every decision that goes against us like Purdy and his Liverpool friends do

Because you rarely have bad decisions made against you

 

[Tom84]

 

[el_dazza]

No we just don't moan about every decision that goes against us like Purdy and his Liverpool friends do

And every bounce of the ball "going to the other team"..
And every deflection..
And every time a player overhits a pass by 1/10th of a yard they're ****..
And every time a defender concedes a corner..

 

[Robbo]

Apparently the Everton fans were singing the victim song yesterday?

 

[dannyjo22]

Apparently the Everton fans were singing the victim song yesterday?

If it was in relation to hillsborough then it's out of order obviously but tbh I don't even think of it in relation to that, just all the other constant whinging and moaning and self pity and woe is me.

They seem to want to make anything and everything about hillsborough.

Again if it was about Hillsborough then it's a shame but I'm sure the fans can overlook a few bad apples when the club has stood shoulder to shoulder in the Justice campaign over the years.

 

[Robbo]

If it was in relation to hillsborough then it's out of order obviously but tbh I don't even think of it in relation to that, just all the other constant whinging and moaning and self pity and woe is me.

They seem to want to make anything and everything about hillsborough.

Again if it was about Hillsborough then it's a shame but I'm sure the fans can overlook a few bad apples when the club has stood shoulder to shoulder in the Justice campaign over the years.

This is the thing, forgetting Hillsborough you can apply the song to Liverpool and their fans. The problem is Liverpool fans will not budge on their stance that it IS about Hillsborough even though the people singing it say it isn't.

It's interesting though because there were plenty of press articles when United fans sung it, but none about this now. It seems there's a lot of picking and choosing what it means to suit the opinion of the fans or the journalists in question.

I think the reason it's sung is for the reasons you described, the woe is me attitude that is attributed to the club.

 

[Azza]

I doubt anything was sung. Nothing is ever picked up by the microphones, no Liverpool fans ever manage to record / film it themselves either, though I guess the TV companies edit the sound so it can't be heard and the emotional distress it causes Liverpool fans means they're completely unable to film it happening.

 

[Robbo]

I doubt anything was sung. Nothing is ever picked up by the microphones, no Liverpool fans ever manage to record / film it themselves either, though I guess the TV companies edit the sound so it can't be heard and the emotional distress it causes Liverpool fans means they're completely unable to film it happening.

You can hear it here towards the end, it was pretty clear: www.dailymotion.com/video/xzmrm6_ev...-victim-vs-liverpool-5-may-2013-anfield_sport

Considering Everton fans (and it doesn't sound like a handful) wouldn't sing about Hillsborough, this backs up the fact it's not about that. However Liverpool fans vehemently disagree whenever Man Utd fans sing it.

 

[Tummy]

Who would you say is the greatest manager of all time then? Shankley? Stein? Trappatoni? Someone else?

Menotti? Sacchi? Cruyff? Herrera? Pozzo? Nicholson? Michels? Happel? Guttmann? Lobanovskiy? Trapattoni? Stein? Paisley? Shankley?

I don't think it's as easy as just saying that sir Alex is the best ever, I don't personally think he is.

Also lovely little quote for you all;

'It is better to fail aiming high then to succeeded aiming low, and we have set our sights very high, so high in fact that even failure will have in it an echo of glory'

 

[Purdy]

You can hear it here towards the end, it was pretty clear: www.dailymotion.com/video/xzmrm6_ev...-victim-vs-liverpool-5-may-2013-anfield_sport

Considerinig Everton fans (and it doesn't sound like a handful) wouldn't sing about Hillsborough, this backs up the fact it's not about that. However Liverpool fans vehemently disagree whenever Man Utd fans sing it.

Everton fans singing murderers as well yesterday, the song came around due to Hillsborough due to rags printing liverpool caused the trouble whilst liverpool fans claimed innocence as a victim of the tragedy. it snt the only song united or everton sing about such things so I see no reason in trying to defend it.

Also whats to stop some everton fans singing it, particularly away crowds? Some will have been effected by Hillsborough, not all. Away fans are always the worst bar the odd home ground with also awful away fans

 

[Robbo]

Everton fans singing murderers as well yesterday, the song came around due to Hillsborough due to rags printing liverpool caused the trouble whilst liverpool fans claimed innocence as a victim of the tragedy. it snt the only song united or everton sing about such things so I see no reason in trying to defend it.

Well, the victim song is usually sung by more people than the 'other' chants, some of which are terrible and shouldn't be sung at all of course. I'm not interested in discussing other songs as we and Liverpool have plenty of bad ones, as do other clubs, but I'm talking about this one specifically.

This one in particular is attributable to many incidents Liverpool find themselves involved with, and people say it's not about Hillsborough, so why do some Liverpool fans insist that it is? Even if it was used in that context, it could have shaken that meaning, even more so now the Hillsborough victims have been absolved of any direct responsibility.

I just thought it was interesting that there aren't any "Disgraceful Everton Fans" headlines when there have been plenty about us. Shows you how twisted and inconsistent the press are.

 

[Purdy]

Well, the victim song is usually sung by more people than the 'other' chants, some of which are terrible and shouldn't be sung at all of course. I'm not interested in discussing other songs as we and Liverpool have plenty of bad ones, as do other clubs, but I'm talking about this one specifically.

This one in particular is attributable to many incidents Liverpool find themselves involved with, and people say it's not about Hillsborough, so why do some Liverpool fans insist that it is? Even if it was used in that context, it could have shaken that meaning, even more so now the Hillsborough victims have been absolved of any direct responsibility.

I just thought it was interesting that there aren't any "Disgraceful Everton Fans" headlines when there have been plenty about us. Shows you how twisted and inconsistent the press are.

If we've shaken it why do we still hear the sun was right sang?

 

[Robbo]

If we've shaken it why do we still hear the sun was right sang?

That is obviously really bad and shouldn't be sung, as I said above, but that's not what I'm talking about. The victim song is sung by a lot more people than the worse ones, so it appears to have shaken the meaning - if it even had it to start with... there aren't that many people (perhaps still too many though) that want to rub in the deaths of 96 innocent people. There are however plenty - if not all - who want to poke fun at Liverpool and the situations in which they find themselves (Suarez ).