Grooming gangs

[Dis86]

The vast majority of the girls being groomed are in Care. Making the Care system work properly would be a better start. Anyone who knows any person who has been through the Care system knows that they are badly damaged and easy prey.

And again I find myself pointing out (although I doubt that it will stop this thread disappearing down a racist rabbit-hole): the majority of grooming gangs which get detected and get in the papers are Asian. But since we don't know how many grooming gangs there are, that tells us little. There have been white grooming gangs for decades, as occasionally leaks out, but with much better "friends" enabling them to avoid detection to a large degree.

Except, as the source tells us, it's nothing to do with how many are making it to the papers, it's about how many are being detected. Is there are reason at all to suggest that a pakistani gang is more likely to be detected than a white gang, or, is it just more probable that there are more pakistani gangs?

 

[TNGL]

White women are seen as worthless + the normalisation of rape + overall misogynistic views within this subgroup of society = ?

White women are also targeted because that way you aren't ******** in your own garden. The Asian community is generally quite close-knit and I'd say the fear of repercussions arising from grooming another Asian is too great.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I've had people respond to comments about grooming gangs by saying that most rape in the UK is committed by White people. That is true. White people also constitute >90% of the country. In terms of individual rapes, IIRC, the figures for White British and Pakistani immigrants (first or second generation) are not wildly different. The huge difference is when it comes to organized rape and grooming gangs in which Pakistani men are hugely over-represented. What this indicates, imo, is that the difference is less about individual desire to rape which may not vary that much, but rather community acceptance of rape. Native rapists are usually isolated and even when there is collusion, it is a furtive association closely guarded from the wider community. Whereas in Pakistani communities semi-open or even open association is frequent.

That (very happily for me) supports my views that it is little to do with someone's race and almost wholly to do with the religion-culture overlap. Which I think most of us knew.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Except, as the source tells us, it's nothing to do with how many are making it to the papers, it's about how many are being detected. Is there are reason at all to suggest that a pakistani gang is more likely to be detected than a white gang, or, is it just more probable that there are more pakistani gangs?

I'm not commenting on likelihood of detection in this post because it's too large to unpick quickly. However, there is reason to suppose that a Pakistani grooming gang is more likely to be ignored as we have documented and consistent examples of that being done. The two primary reasons being:

1/ Fear of being deemed racist. (Explicitly stated and proven to be the case in Rotherham).
2/ Closed communities being more impenetrable to outside investigators and social services. (I knew one Pakistani girl in the UK who both had very quite poor English and who was forbidden to talk to men and generally reluctant to talk to non-Muslims as well. She wouldn't talk to me).

 

[h4rm0ny]

Here's something that gets missed and is worth picking up on. Most of our Pakistani immigrants come from poorer, rural areas. 60% of our British Pakistani population derive from Mirpur district in Kashmir. That's an especially regressive area. If our Pakistani immigration primarily was affluent, urban Pakistanis we'd be seeing a substantially different picture. There isn't really a parallel I can use for British emigrants because it's been a long time since the British Isles had such wild discrepancies in poverty and education that countries like Pakistan still have. But it would be like if a country had a large number of immigrants from Britain and they were largely coming from one particularly rural and poorly educated county. Pakistan has major cultural differences to Britain, but its also exacerbated by a selection bias of that country as well.

I add this both because it's worth noting but also because I am an ardent believer that the problem is culture, not race, and I get very angry when someone equates the two and thinks just because someone is of a particular background they will behave a particular way. The chief reasons for the problem are not that any given Pakistani man is a bad person or prone to rape. Indeed the stats on individual rape help support that. The chief problems are the amount of immigration, leading to non-integration and preservation of negative cultural elements such as attitudes to women and lack of visibility into the communities; and the fear of being perceived as racist leading to reluctance to follow up on or prosecute such behaviour.

 

[Mason-]

As for the is it culture/religion thing. Ultimately it's culture, however it is obvious that religion has a huge impact on culture. UK + Christianity is an obvious example. However ultimately if you have a society whose culture is all about tolerance, if an intolerant group enters your society, the tolerant society either has to do something about it (which makes itself intolerant) or it will get trampled on by the intolerants. I think we can all agree that immigration has benefits, the question is who does it benefit?

 

[explicit4u]

White women are seen as worthless + the normalisation of rape + overall misogynistic views within this subgroup of society = ?

White women are also targeted because that way you aren't ******** in your own garden. The Asian community is generally quite close-knit and I'd say the fear of repercussions arising from grooming another Asian is too great.

Not disagreeing with you, but where does this notion come from?

I have a lot of South Asian friends, mostly female, but most of the male friends I have glorify dating white girls and tend to avoid dating in their own race. The girls are more willing to date within their race but are also very hesitant about South Asian men (lots of unpleasant stories).

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

Except, as the source tells us, it's nothing to do with how many are making it to the papers, it's about how many are being detected. Is there are reason at all to suggest that a pakistani gang is more likely to be detected than a white gang, or, is it just more probable that there are more pakistani gangs?

Taking Rotherham as an example it is potentially more likely that Pakistani gangs are less likely to be investigated due to a fear of racist accusations.

 

[Blackjack Davy]

No I really wavy to know how do you tackle something this, I just want us all to live in peace together. So much division, what's the root cause?

Oh I don't know, allowing mass immigration of people with different religious, culture and values to our own? Who look down on cultures other than their own as being lesser than their own? Who could have possibly guessed that would lead to divisions in society?!

 

[Malevolence]

The overwhelming majority are Pakistanis, but you're not allowed to say that publicly because telling the truth is racist.

 

[Roland Butter]

Oh I don't know, allowing mass immigration of people with different religious, culture and values to our own? Who look down on cultures other than their own as being lesser than their own? Who could have possibly guessed that would lead to divisions in society?!

Indeed, Romanian families selling their children for sex in Govanhill in Glasgow is just the type of thing that undoubtably enriches UK culture and society.
As an entrepreneurial strategy offering your own 10 year old daughter to strangers for sex is something Scots have been strangely unwilling to
do, we must thank unlimited immigration for this new boost to Scotland's economy.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Not disagreeing with you, but where does this notion come from?

I have a lot of South Asian friends, mostly female, but most of the male friends I have glorify dating white girls and tend to avoid dating in their own race. The girls are more willing to date within their race but are also very hesitant about South Asian men (lots of unpleasant stories).

Islam places a lot of emphasis on female modesty of dress, virginity and so on ad nauseum. Basically Western Women get viewed as whores by a lot of Pakistani men. Whilst young Pakistani girls suffer the other end of the same medieval attitude, being treated like possessions to be guarded and their virginity a tradable good at marriage. My guess is that your male friends (if by South Asian you mean Pakistani), tend to either be less religious / culturally tied to Pakistani roots; or else love dating "White girls" because "White girls" aren't brought up to either view sex outside of marriage as something that will land them in Hell or to fear getting beaten by their father for being a "**** who brings shame on the family". Or it's just seen as an achievement somehow.

 

[Spook187]

Have I dropped my standards or have you upped yours?

No he just uses wilkipedia for his answers don't be silly in thinking Dowie has common sense lol.

 

[Jean-F]

White women are seen as worthless + the normalisation of rape + overall misogynistic views within this subgroup of society = ?

White women are also targeted because that way you aren't ******** in your own garden. The Asian community is generally quite close-knit and I'd say the fear of repercussions arising from grooming another Asian is too great.

Colour me cynical, but if I was in the mood to get my leg over in the easiest possible way, and the choices were to take a crack at a girl from a society that hammered honour and chastity into their womenfolk, or make a wild play for some blonde chav, who’d drop to her knees for a bag of chips, I don’t think that I’d waste my time with an Asian girl.

 

[asim18]

Some facts:
1/ Pakistan until very recently required four male witnesses to the actual rape in order to prosecute. Just to prosecute! The judicial system is so stacked against women in Pakistan it's a wonder there are ever any convictions.
2/ In Pakistan, rape is frequently seen as an offense not against the victim, but on the honour of her male relatives. For example, a boy from one village raped a girl from another a few years ago in North Pakistan. The villages settled the matter by deciding the girl's brother would rape the first boy's sister to even things out. To them, this was JUSTICE. Because it was seen solely as the boy having been harmed by his sister being devalued. THIS is the mindset that is commonplace in Pakistan.
3/ Reported rapes in Pakistan are something like one fifth that of Britain. That's not because Pakistani men are one fifth as likely to commit rape as British men. It's because nobody bothers to report it. Rape is almost normalised in Pakistan.

Rape is normalised in Pakistan? So how do you explain their cultural drive to maintain their women and daughters' chastity? It's a bit oxymoronic no? If rape was normalised in pakistan, why are there so many virgins?

I hate to say this so bluntly but I'm sure you can handle it: you don't know how justice works in Pakistan.

The reason many crimes (which include rape) go unreported is because the father/uncle/grandad will give £12-15 to the police chief to keep his mouth shut, while the family goes over and kicks the **** out of the rapist, sometimes even murder and bury them. Obviously the more money you give, the more justice you can serve.

In fact I know of an actual case of this happening in EAST LONDON. Someone raped some guys GRAND daughter and this guy went and murdered him with a kitchen knife even though he KNEW he cant give the police here £15 to keep their mouth shut on a MURDER case. This dude got got incarcerated for over a dozen years for dishing out his own justice, so how on earth can you say "rape is normalised", unless you can explain to me where were the girls' fathers in the rotherham cases?


Another reason many crimes go unreported is because Pakistan simply cannot afford to house half it's bloody population, let alone criminals, keep them alive, give them a room and feed them for years at a time. It's almost as if you're choosing to be ignorant to the socioeconomic differences, and just focus on ONE tiny anecdote and say "THIS is the mindset that is commonplace in Pakistan." and then you say "I'm not racist". Personally, I'd have never, never thought you were even remotely racist.

Again, look at Rotherham. People ringing the alarm bell were actively dismissed because (and this is explicitly acknowledged) the authorities "did not want to appear racist."

Why do you think "not appearing racist" would be on someone's consciousness? Not being a racist or not, but appearing racist.

Someone is either a racist or they aren't. Worrying about your personal appearance when faced with a CHILD who has called for your dutiful assistance, is just unbelievable. If you give special treatment based on race, instead of facts of case, then you are definitively a racist.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

The overwhelming majority are Pakistanis, but you're not allowed to say that publicly because telling the truth is racist.

I'm not attempting to defend anyone here, but it's not telling the truth that's racist. It's that most white people cannot tell the difference between a Pakistani man and other asian men. Not their fault, but the generalisations are strong.

 

[Tunney]

The overwhelming majority are Pakistanis, but you're not allowed to say that publicly because telling the truth is racist.

Aren’t you? You seem to have managed it.

Pointing out the truth isn’t racist. It is racist if you then turn a blind eye on grooming by white men. For example, Pakistani grooming gangs has been a hot topic for Nigel Farage but he’s currently in the US trying to get the suspected pedophile Roy Moore elected as senator.

 

[Rifte]

Aren’t you? You seem to have managed it.

Pointing out the truth isn’t racist. It is racist if you then turn a blind eye on grooming by white men. For example, Pakistani grooming gangs has been a hot topic for Nigel Farage but he’s currently in the US trying to get the suspected pedophile Roy Moore elected as senator.

I read the sky news article yesterday on this :

https://news.sky.com/story/grooming-gang-convictions-84-asian-say-researchers-11164589

and aside from the headline 84% of 'asian' men, it also detailed that :

"According to the most recent figures, released in 2012 by the National Crime Agency's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command (CEOP), 100% of child sex offenders in paedophile rings were white"

So why do we not generalize white guys as paedophiles?

For me there is a big difference culturally as to why.

Rape, child rape, paedophilia etc are all crimes that hold an immense amount of shame attached to them. I cant imagine the likes of Ian Watkins telling his bandmates, family, girlfriends or family that he liked abusing children. I dont believe for one moment that Saville went around detailing to his close network that he liked touching up young girls in hospitals etc. They are fully aware of how socially deprived their actions are and how they will be judged if it ever came to light within their network.

In these Pakistani gangs though you will find that the offenders are close friends and in some cases family members. Brothers, uncles and cousins commiting the same crimes within the same geographic and demographic. They seem to be very little shame attached to what is happening. They must actively talk about it and plan it within their family network. For me this is the key part and indicates that its not just a random bunch of deprived individuals coming together, we are talking about family members here. People in the same community.

This quote at the end of article touches upon this :

"British white men they tend to work individually. They tend to work online where they groom and they are the majority of perpetrators. When it comes to Asian men or Pakistani men they tend to do it in groups," Mr Afzal said.

Rape is normalised in Pakistan? So how do you explain their cultural drive to maintain their women and daughters' chastity? It's a bit oxymoronic no? If rape was normalised in pakistan, why are there so many virgins?

I wouldn't say that rape is normalized in Pakistan, but its not right to compare how these communities treat their own women against white women. Pakistani men view them completely differently and treat them differently.

 

[Jean-F]

Why do you think "not appearing racist" would be on someone's consciousness? Not being a racist or not, but appearing racist.

Someone is either a racist or they aren't. Worrying about your personal appearance when faced with a CHILD who has called for your dutiful assistance, is just unbelievable. If you give special treatment based on race, instead of facts of case, then you are definitively a racist.

I’m pretty sure that no man was concerned about his choice of tie, or for women, if their lipstick was smudged, when the subject of the young girls allegedly being groomed was brought up for discussion.
I’d say that “personal appearance” was a classic case of the iniquitous Americanism, “misspoke”, and should have been public perception.

Aren’t you? You seem to have managed it.

Pointing out the truth isn’t racist. It is racist if you then turn a blind eye on grooming by white men. For example, Pakistani grooming gangs has been a hot topic for Nigel Farage but he’s currently in the US trying to get the suspected pedophile Roy Moore elected as senator.

I have zero time for Farage, nor for paedophiles, but the mention of Moore’s name rang a bell.
I had read, but for obvious reasons, couldn’t contribute to, a list of posts on a U.S. forum about him.
Apparently he is running for the Senate in D.C.
When the allegations surfaced, they seemed to stem from history, and concerned nine (I think), women who were between the ages of 14 and 18 at the time of the allegations, of course, it’s still wrong, whether they were 14-18, or 4-8, but he has consistently denied the allegations, although he has admitted dating teenagers while in his 30s.
The biggest black mark against him seemed to be his support of Neo-Confederate groups, and of promoting a history supporting the Southern side in the U.S. Civil War, probably a bit of politicking, as he’s an Alabaman.

 

[ZXSpectrum]

One of the issues is the likes of Naz Shah that wants groomed girls to keep their mouths shut for the sake of diversity, even retweeting a comment that stated so. If it was white people doing this to Asian girls I am certain that would not be her sentiment. Surely even the fact that she thinks this way means that she is well aware that the main perpetrators of this sort of abhorrent behaviour are from certain backgrounds.