Guild Wars 2

Because GW is a story focused game that didnt want players being negatively affected by too many or too few a number of people around.

GW2 isnt this way though is it? I mean its not so story focused (at least not in an instancing way) and has plenty of opportunity to be affected by too many or too few a number of people around? Cause if its akin to GW1, I'm just going to end up not liking it again. From what you've said so far though , and what I've read and seen, its going to be more the kind of thing I like instead, which is a good thing :D

(got to be honest though, its the 3 way PvP which is most tantalizing me :) )
 
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bhavy is there much farming/speedclear capability with mesmers :p?

I just fully completed FOW with 3 mesmer heroes in around 1:30-1:45 with mostly everything killed.

Everyone is speedclearing both FoW and DoA with mesmer heroes these days. Its not as fast as a full human group, but for a pull party of AI its pretty epic how powerful they are.

I recorded some clips, but cant be bothered youtubing them yet.
 
GW2 isnt this way though is it? I mean its not so story focused (at least not in an instancing way) and has plenty of opportunity to be affected by too many or too few a number of people around? Cause if its akin to GW1, I'm just going to end up not liking it again. From what you've said so far though , and what I've read and seen, its going to be more the kind of thing I like instead, which is a good thing :D

Erm GW2 is based on people around you being an asset rather than a hindrance. The more people around, the better everything goes and everyone gets loot based on how much they participate. The difficulty adjusts with the number of people that are participating, so having more or less people around is never going to be a negative.

And GW2 is definitely very story focused, and the personal story part of the game is mostly solo and instanced, but you can invite friends to play through your personal story with you if you want, and you can join theirs as well.

The personal story is a personalized story unique to you based on your character creation and choices in the game. Just about every video on this game makes a big deal out of this and dynamic events.

The whole world is fully persistant, but the personal story will normally take you to new areas in an instanced form and you complete dungeons as part of your story the first time, and then they open up as persistent areas that you can replay whenever you like.

You can fully ignore the personal story too, its optional.
 
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Erm GW2 is based on people around you being an asset rather than a hindrance. The more people around, the better everything goes and everyone gets loot based on how much they participate. The difficulty adjusts with the number of people that are participating, so having more or less people around is never going to be a negative.

And GW1 is definitely very story focused, and the personal story part of the game is mostly solo and instanced, but you can invite friends to play through your personal story with you if you want, and you can join theirs as well.

The personal story is a personalised story baseon your character creation and choices in the game. Just about every video on this game makes a big deal out of this and dynamic events.

Yeah I know, I played GW1 :) It was just that I love to run around, maybe bump into a guy who is on the brink of dying to mobs, run up, save him, then maybe group up for a bit, bump into another couple of people trying to fight their way into a cave, merge with them and fight our way down and back out again, hear of an attack by enemy players on one of our camps and all mount up and ride over to the camp to help defend it. That sort of thing...I just wasnt able to do that in GW1, I guess in effect I wasnt able to write my own story. Which is fine, dont get me wrong, that wasnt their intent and not every game can be styled for every person. Neither I nor GW1 were in the wrong, we just werent compatible.

So...I'm glad to hear that GW2 sounds more compatible with me. I dont worry about people being around, more people around me is never a hindrance to my enjoyment so it couldnt have been a negative for me anyway :) If anything, the more people the better imo when it comes to MMOs, I'm one of those "the less instancing the better" types of players. (not relevant to GW2, but I really miss the dungeons of old where instead of being just for your group , everyone shared them and all went in the one dungeon, though admittedly that was a lot more viable back in the day because there were fewer idiots playing MMOs then)
 
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Yeah I know, I played GW1 :) It was just that I love to run around, maybe bump into a guy who is on the brink of dying to mobs, run up, save him, then maybe group up for a bit, bump into another couple of people trying to fight their way into a cave, merge with them and fight our way down and back out again
I love the idea of that too and I've tried so many times in other MMOs to play like that. I used to think it was the whole point of MMOs, why else would we have a massively populated world if it wasn't for encounters like this, but it just never seems to work. I'm gob-smacked by the level of anti social gamers in MMOs, the software usually doesn't even try to help, it really shouldn't be possible to kill steal and what-not.

It should be a joy to bump into people miles into the middle of nowhere, but everyone usually sees everyone else as competition. This is what excites me most about GW2.





I always get a little concerned whenever a dev starts talking about event scaling though. If an event scales based on the active participation what is the incentive to bring your friends along, or for you to cry out for backup? Also (and I'm not sure if I have this right) I heard a dev say that your level is scaled to match the area you are in, so if a level 80 friend comes to join you in newbie town he is scaled down to match mobs and visa versa. I fully understand the reasoning, my experience has been ruined before by higher levels thinking they are giving me a hand when really they are just completing the game for me, but If that's the case then why even bother with a levelling system?

I'm probably just not seeing the bigger picture, or I just don't really understand the mechanics of this system, but scaling systems always make me nervous. If a game is designed to keep you on the edge but never push you over and then eventually the flattery will become apparent, I just hope it doesn't feel like you can't really lose.
 
I used to think it was the whole point of MMOs

Well thats the thing, if you ask me that is precisely the point of MMOs. To be one in a world, not necessarily the hero, could be anything, could be that you are just a tavernkeeper, could be that you are just someone who makes furniture, could be that you are just a sailor, sailing from town to town selling treasures you have found on remote islands, could be that you are a pacifist politician, employed by those with disputes to be settled, could be that you are a mercenary hired by others to dispatch a certain person etc. Could be that you are a thief, stealing others property and hawking it for funds. Could be that you are a serial killer. I always saw MMOs as the logical next step of PnP RPGs.

Unfortunately that point became lost on most people and they have ultimately become glorified Diablo-esque Hunt-an-item hack and slashes. (probably more the fault of the players than the devs to be fair) Having said that, its still my favourite genre for its scope and for its potential to still develop into what I envisaged (though admittedly with each passing year that becomes less and less likely)

I'm gob-smacked by the level of anti social gamers in MMOs.

It wasnt always as bad as it is now, there was a time when the ratio of social gamers in MMOs to anti-social gamers in MMOs was much more reasonable. However there is no halting progress and as new technologies became available the ratio of anti-social gamers began to increase.
 
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wow killed mmo's imo

they went from having great teamwork and communities to beeing full of people who prefer to solo unless they are forced into a group, full of people who dont know how to play there class properly in a group and people who will drop from a group as soon as they get what they want.

its very rare someone will do something in an mmo these days unless they get personal benefit
 
wow killed mmo's imo

they went from having great teamwork and communities to beeing full of people who prefer to solo unless they are forced into a group, full of people who dont know how to play there class properly in a group and people who will drop from a group as soon as they get what they want.

its very rare someone will do something in an mmo these days unless they get personal benefit

There is certainly some truth to that, particularly the last sentence there. There was a time for instance that people PvP'ed for no reason other than the fun of it, a lot of the time now though people PvP for the PvP gear. Often wanting to know what "they get out of it" , like just fun isnt enough.

I would also agree that generally speaking the communities in the older MMOs were better than the communities in the newer ones. I think there are many reasons for that, voice chat is one (dont get me wrong, voicechat is great and has its uses but the moment it became widespread it caused people to talk in that in isolation rather than talk in the ingame chat in public and is a factor in why chat channels are often so quiet in newer MMOs), cheap widely available broadband is another, I'm not sure its specifically WoW which damaged MMOs, I suspect perhaps its more just that WoW was the vehicle by which the damage was embodied rather than the inherent cause itself.
 
wow killed mmo's imo

they went from having great teamwork and communities to beeing full of people who prefer to solo unless they are forced into a group, full of people who dont know how to play there class properly in a group and people who will drop from a group as soon as they get what they want.

its very rare someone will do something in an mmo these days unless they get personal benefit

To an extent, but doing LK Heroic prior to a 30% buff or even after required amazing team work, same with any of the end game bosses really.
Although I agree people in my guild were just like 'AMG GIVE ME FLYING HORSIE IM HERE ALL THE TIME'.

I think just as the Internet and gaming has grown you get more idiots and not much can be done.
 
I always get a little concerned whenever a dev starts talking about event scaling though. If an event scales based on the active participation what is the incentive to bring your friends along, or for you to cry out for backup? Also (and I'm not sure if I have this right) I heard a dev say that your level is scaled to match the area you are in, so if a level 80 friend comes to join you in newbie town he is scaled down to match mobs and visa versa. I fully understand the reasoning, my experience has been ruined before by higher levels thinking they are giving me a hand when really they are just completing the game for me, but If that's the case then why even bother with a levelling system?

This is a very good point.

The simple answer is that there is no point to a steep leveling system in any game, I.E. GW1 which only had 20 levels that you could get in less than one day.

This was to put all players on an equal footing and reduce level based powercreep and high level characters ganking lower ones and other problems associated with high numbers of levels, it was a good idea, but then came all the traditional MMO players who started whinging and whining about GW only having 20 levels.

So in GW2 they decided to increase the levels up to 80 like in a lot of other MMOs 'because this is something that players really wanted', but to also keep the equality of players that GW1 had by using scaling. This is trying to create a system that appeals to both GW1 fans, and traditional MMO fans who think that the number of levels they have is somehow a big deal in whatever game they are playing.

They have already said that higher levels wont really do a lot in GW2, there will be a cap where abilities stop increasing probably around level 20 like in GW1, and then higher levels will simply unlock more traits and maybe give a little extra HP. They are simply just there for the traditional MMOers who want to see a big number of levels next to their character.

I'm gob-smacked by the level of anti social gamers in MMOs, the software usually doesn't even try to help, it really shouldn't be possible to kill steal and what-not.

Its stuff like this that ruins traditional MMOs for me, kill stealing, ganking, people being able to follow you around to stalk, high level morons going into lower level areas to kill everything and grief lowbies etc etc etc.

Just about every traditional MMO has some aspect of these things, and thats why I enjoyed GW1 so much, because I could simply play it without being bothered by anyone else. Also, I strongly hate MMO systems where you need to spend up to an hour making a group for every single quest that you might want to do (lol DDO). If I cant pick up a game, install it and play the content without having to wait for absolutely ages to find specific cleric, rogue, warrior and mage classes, then I'm not exactly getting much enjoyment out of my time wasted having to form groups.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the game and play anything without waiting for ages for other people to join my group, and GW1 gradually allowed this with heroes, improved henchmen, and now being able to use full teams of heroes instead of other players.

Making groups for PVE content (missions and vanquishes) in GW1 was literally impossible. There was hardly ever anyone around that wanted to join you, and when they did they were running their own funky or copy pasted wiki builds that didnt really synergise or work well with what you had or actually needed for the area you were doing.

Now I can simply load up on my mesmer, necro and ritualist heroes and go and play absolutely whatever I want without wasting any time in GW1, and never have to worry about making groups, being griefed or affected by anyone else in the game.

In the majority of MMOs, playing with others is never a good thing, it always turns out to be the strongest negative about the game.
 
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LK heroics were a joke...

did you play burning crusade heroics before they got nerfed massively?

I meant, Lich King heroic, as in the boss. Unless you are referring to SWP pre nerf or something.

Lich King Heroic probably one of the tightest fights ever in terms of numbers, require amazing teamwork but the mechanics were fairly simple.
Yogg 0 was nuts to and required epic teamwork but a chunk of luck involved as it was just nuts.
 
T
In the majority of MMOs, playing with others is never a good thing, it always turns out to be the strongest negative about the game.

If you are playing with people you know (i.e. a decent guild) it can make the game much more enjoyable. Goes both ways, pugging is perhaps never a good thing, yet sometimes very enjoyable if u strike gold with a bunch of people who all want to keep going if you fail first time round.

Strongest negative about MMOs is the shear number of people who play them, you are guarenteed to meet many idiots but if you find the right people it can be the largest positive of the game.
 
I meant, Lich King heroic, as in the boss. Unless you are referring to SWP pre nerf or something.

Lich King Heroic probably one of the tightest fights ever in terms of numbers, require amazing teamwork but the mechanics were fairly simple.
Yogg 0 was nuts to and required epic teamwork but a chunk of luck involved as it was just nuts.

If I cant kill things when I want to, cant get into groups because my level is too low or I dont have the right equipment or am the wrong class, and have to rely on always making large groups of people just to kill a boss that requires me and every other person in the group of 20 or however many to simply stand around pressing '1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 1 ,1 ,1, 1, 1', then I am not interested.

Traditional MMO mechanics are stupid.
 
Its stuff like this that ruins traditional MMOs for me, kill stealing, ganking, people being able to follow you around to stalk, high level morons going into lower level areas to kill everything and grief lowbies etc etc etc.

Thats why the Daoc system was so perfect for everyone. Nobody could kill steal or gank you unless you wanted them to, no high level morons could go into lower level areas to kill everything and grief lowbies. It was one of the most universal PvE and PvP games I've seen, offering great PvP for those who liked PvP without having to have it hassle the people who didnt want to.

In the majority of MMOs, playing with others is never a good thing, it always turns out to be the strongest negative about the game.

Conversely I find that playing with others is the strongest positive about the genre. (and also the strongest negative). Without others, with just npcs and AI mobs, I think I would find them about as interesting as playing one of the Battlefield games online with just bots and no players :)
 
If I cant kill things when I want to, cant get into groups because my level is too low or I dont have the right equipment or am the wrong class, and have to rely on always making large groups of people just to kill a boss that requires me and every other person in the group of 20 or however many to simply stand around pressing '1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 1 ,1 ,1, 1, 1', then I am not interested.

Traditional MMO mechanics are stupid.

Thats where UO was so great, didnt have grouping so no worrying about not getting into groups. Didnt have levels, so no worrying that your level was too low, didnt have epic lootz, so no worrying about having the right equipment, didnt have classes, so no worrying about being the wrong class. Didnt have quests, so no worrying whether you were on the same quest as someone. Didnt have bosses, so no worrying about making large groups of people to kill a boss. Didnt have skill buttons, so no worrying about pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1

:D
 
Except in some MMOs the word 'ally' is roughly translated as 'Person i have to group up with or talk to just to take the edge off this grinding'. Grinding solo or grinding in teams, theres no difference, very little skill was ever required. As bhavv said, sometimes you could defeat things using macros purely because nothing interesting happened and you'd just have to spam things over and over until it eventually died.
 
You know, I love GW1 for what it is, I like being able to just go off on my own, and churn my way through zones, I like the instancing which means that I can kill absolutely everything in an area without needing to worry about some idiot with a gimp build come running along killing everything in sight before I get to them, or worse still the lowbie that comes tearing along shouting "help! HELP!!" as they pull a great train behind them. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy teaming up with people too, but sometimes it is just as good to go off by myself for a while.

As for weather, well, I can live without it, many games in the past that feature weather (especially rain) I have switched off weather effects as soon as I could, very pretty indeed, totally unnecessary, but then, I don't often switch on fancy graphics effects either.. But that's just me.

I do remember a good few years ago, during the development of Dragon Empires (I wish that game had made it to release), that they were working on dynamic weather effects, and that Prodigy (the developer in charge of climate maps and mountain smoothing) went almost crosseyed from trying to get the various maps to work..

As for the low level cap in gw1, yes, it is possible to reach max level in a day, but that is only half the battle.. I've always seen it as levels 1-19 were 'tutorial' levels, and once you reached level 20, that was when the game really began. I think it a shame that the devs feel that they need to expand that for gw2..

and finally, because I am sure it will come up somewhere, the matter of pvp. I've played games where open pvp is rife, and really more stress comes out of that, than anything else (and I am speaking here from experience as a GM/Moderator for games not as a player). What GW1 had was great, the arenas, the few zones where pvp took place, meant that if you wanted pvp you could go there and pvp all day long, and if you didn't, then you didn't have to either. I like to have that choice. Another nameless game that I have played recently, is being crippled while still in beta, by groups of players that believe that 'world pvp' means "hur hur.. kill everyone 24/7.." and that if people complain about endgame players camping lowbie areas, the reply is "if you dont like it.. go play hello kitty online".. I hope the GW2 keeps to its roots and remembers that while pvp is popular, there is still a large proportion of players, that would rather pvp when they choose to, not when some neanderthal decides to get some laughs..
 
Thats where UO was so great, didnt have grouping so no worrying about not getting into groups. Didnt have levels, so no worrying that your level was too low, didnt have epic lootz, so no worrying about having the right equipment, didnt have classes, so no worrying about being the wrong class. Didnt have quests, so no worrying whether you were on the same quest as someone. Didnt have bosses, so no worrying about making large groups of people to kill a boss. Didnt have skill buttons, so no worrying about pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4, 5, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1

:D

I wish I had played Daoc and UO, but I also dont want to play games with fees.

I am picky, and GW + GW2 are giving me (mostly) everything I like :)

or worse still the lowbie that comes tearing along shouting "help! HELP!!" as they pull a great train behind them

Oh god is that so annoying. It happens so many times in GW when you group with others, there will be some 'narutard' or 'leeroy' that runs off into everything pulling huge mobs towards you and getting you completely ganked.

This is why no one likes having assassins in their groups unless they are SF tanking, which is the only use that assassins in GW have these days. I dont like any melee class tbh. They are just mob train magnets.

Also when I play on my own, I can go AFK whenever I need to without affecting anyone else, and dont need to bogged down by anyone in my group going AFK, leaving, rage quitting, or drawing willies on the minimap.
 
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and finally, because I am sure it will come up somewhere, the matter of pvp. I've played games where open pvp is rife, and really more stress comes out of that, than anything else (and I am speaking here from experience as a GM/Moderator for games not as a player). What GW1 had was great, the arenas, the few zones where pvp took place, meant that if you wanted pvp you could go there and pvp all day long, and if you didn't, then you didn't have to either. I like to have that choice. Another nameless game that I have played recently, is being crippled while still in beta, by groups of players that believe that 'world pvp' means "hur hur.. kill everyone 24/7.." and that if people complain about endgame players camping lowbie areas, the reply is "if you dont like it.. go play hello kitty online".. I hope the GW2 keeps to its roots and remembers that while pvp is popular, there is still a large proportion of players, that would rather pvp when they choose to, not when some neanderthal decides to get some laughs..

To be fair though, thats more down to implementation rather than concept. World PvP in Daoc for example had no means by which endgame players could camp lowbie areas and allowed people to pvp why they choose to. If someone has a problem with World PvP, more often than not they dont actually have a problem with World PvP itself, what they have a problem with is its implementation in game X.
 
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