Guilt free Sausages?

[LiE]

We also kill other animals out of necessity, for the same reason lions do

Lions are obligate carnivores, they have to eat animals or they die. We don't have to eat animals, that is a choice. Necessity suggests that we have to it eat it.

When you sit down at a restaurant and have the choice of a beef burger or a vegan burger, there is no necessity that you eat the beef burger.

Veganism is a fad diet for privileged Westerners who don't either don't realise or refuse to admit that the omnivorous agricultural industry they hate so much is actually responsible for the food security that allows them to indulge their virtue signalling.

Veganism isn't a diet, it's a moral belief that an animals life is more important than taste pleasure. That doesn't even touch on how terrible animal agriculture is for the planet, it's not sustainable at all. I don't understand the prejudice towards vegans who at the core are simply being kind towards all living beings.

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

Imagine in 23

Lions are obligate carnivores, they have to eat animals or they die. We don't have to eat animals, that is a choice. Necessity suggests that we have to it eat it.

Correction - we don't have to as adults.

There are endless media stories of babies dying from malnutrition because their woke hippie parents decided to feed them plant based foods only.

 

[413x]

Everyone in the UK going vegan / green / anything as such does nothing to affect these issues on a global scale.

The morality and rationale behind these ideas either need to apply to everyone globally or it doesn't matter at all.

How do you propose the idea of everyone in the UK becoming vegan will work while everyday more and more farmland is converted into housing? Lets even imagine eliminating trade and being 100% self reliant on food, can the UK / entire world be fed entirely from locally produced plant based sources only?

If I eat meat today, that means more vegetables for someone else. There is the whole ecosystem and sustenance of the whole food chain to consider - all humans going vegan is completely unsustainable.

2 things

Animals eat plants and are less efficient. As energy is lost up the supply chain eating animals is less efficient.

This maybe doesnt apply when the animals live on land not suitable. For crops. (like sheep, goats etc). But generally animals are fed animal feeds containing soya etc. Especially pigs and layer hens which need high protein diets.


Also, factor. In water. Beef farming for example uses vast amounts of water.

Also factor in green house gas emissions from meat farming

 

[LiE]

Imagine in 23


Correction - we don't have to as adults.

There are endless media stories of babies dying from malnutrition because their woke hippie parents decided to feed them plant based foods only.

Unsurprisingly, many people are very poor at eating properly, this isn't exclusive to a vegan diet. I recognise that it isn't for everyone, but I'd propose that people could do much more than eating animal products 3-5 times per day, every day.

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

2 things

Animals eat plants and are less efficient. As energy is lost up the supply chain eating animals is less efficient.

This maybe doesnt apply when the animals live on land not suitable. For crops. (like sheep, goats etc).

Also, factor. In water.

Animals eat plants that humans can't though, mostly grass / hay.

The idea of converting all meat farming to plant farming being viable and producing more food is still an untested science fiction.

 

[413x]

Animals eat plants that humans can't though, mostly grass / hay.

The idea of converting all meat farming to plant farming being viable and producing more food is still an untested science fiction.

To a degree I agree.
But there is a vast amount of animal farming that isn't efficient. That take up arable farm land.

This isn't the case with pigs, chickens and there is a lot of supplement in other farming too.
Dairy cow absolutely do not just eat grass

I'm not sure if any concrete numbers are available I have to say.

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

Meh lets continue with the Imagine in 2300 thing I was planning to write but was too daft to continue with ....

Imagine in 2300, the whole world has become entirely vegan.

However a new uncurable / untreatable plant based disease / pest / pollution emerges that rapidly destroys food crops causing food supplies to dwindle.

However plants that animals can eat are unaffected / or animals can still eat the diseased crops.

Food diversity is a necessary failsafe for such a scenario.

 

[LiE]

Meh lets continue with the Imagine in 2300 thing I was planning to write but was too daft to continue with ....

Imagine in 2300, the whole world has become entirely vegan.

However a new uncurable / untreatable plant based disease / pest / pollution emerges that rapidly destroys food crops causing food supplies to dwindle.

However plants that animals can eat are unaffected / or animals can still eat the diseased crops.

Food diversity is a necessary failsafe for such a scenario.

Lets imagine for the a minute, the year is 2020 and a new virus emerges in some animals. Some people eat those animals and catch a zoonotic disease that spreads across the world, killing millions and causing lock downs and untold suffering.

 

[413x]

Meh lets continue with the Imagine in 2300 thing I was planning to write but was too daft to continue with ....

Imagine in 2300, the whole world has become entirely vegan.

However a new uncurable / untreatable plant based disease / pest / pollution emerges that rapidly destroys food crops causing food supplies to dwindle.

However plants that animals can eat are unaffected / or animals can still eat the diseased crops.

Food diversity is a necessary failsafe for such a scenario.

In 2300 we absolutely will not be farming animals for meat. Food will basically be few grown in industrial labs.

I'd say it well be much much sooner than that.

Climate change will not allow it. Technology for mass production of lab grown foods will be so cheap/efficient livestock production will be obsolete

 

[413x]

Lets imagine for the a minute, the year is 2020 and a new virus emerges in some animals. Some people eat those animals and catch a zoonotic disease that spreads across the world, killing millions and causing lock downs and untold suffering.

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

Lets imagine for the a minute, the year is 2020 and a new virus emerges in some animals. Some people eat those animals and catch a zoonotic disease that spreads across the world, killing millions and causing lock downs and untold suffering.

In this scenrio you can stop eating / producing infected meat.

In my scenario meat food supplies have already been abandoned.

There is a failsafe to your idea, there wasn't one for mine.

Its simply not a good idea to abandon meat production as neither would be abandoning plant based foods. Both are needed to feed everyone, and offer a wider variety of options and back ups if one source is compromised.

 

[BallistixOnZ490]

In 2300 we absolutely will not be farming animals for meat. Food will basically be few grown in industrial labs.

I'd say it well be much much sooner than that.

Climate change will not allow it. Technology for mass production of lab grown foods will be so cheap/efficient livestock production will be obsolete

Im perfectly fine with and still waiting for lab grown meat, but currently it costs hundreds times more to make than normal meat from livestock.

Also the original idea in this thread was that lab grown meat is just as unethical.

Every human in the world becoming vegan will never be feasible. How do people that look down on anyone that eats meat think of people that eat meat in other cultures?

 

[413x]

Im perfectly fine with and still waiting for lab grown meat, but currently it costs hundreds times more to make than normal meat from livestock.

Also the original idea in this thread was that lab grown meat is just as unethical.

I'd definitely isn't as unethical. And it can even be grown from single cells. A few animals living the dream could seed a factory. But this Depends on your views.
I doubt it will be long for meat subs to make obsolete farming. Especially in the west.

Just like fossil fuel the big switch will be when it becomes economical. Then you'll have the pressure ethically and economically.

And most people look for price. Once that chicken breast is £1 from a lab or £2 from a farm you'll see farm volume collapse. Farming isn't viable on a small scale. Except. For niche markets.

This space is moving rapidly.
Even a beyond burger in tesco is now 4 pounds for 2. Not a year ago it wasn't even available.

It's not perfect. But lab meat is far better than farm meat. From all perspectives.

 

[Hagar]

Tonight it is sardines and salad for tea. Loads of green stuff, a bit of carbohydrate with a small amount of fish proteins. If it was midwinter it would be shepherds pie or casserole, meat and vegetables to provide masses of energy and to keep the body going.

 

[Jono8]

Veganism isn't a diet, it's a moral belief that an animals life is more important than taste pleasure..

Well then it is a very odd belief system, because it will result in far fewer animal lives.

 

[200sols]

Well then it is a very odd belief system, because it will result in far fewer animal lives.

Are you being obtuse or just thick? I'm not a vegan but it isnt hard to understand what they are saying.

 

[Hagar]

Vegans are from the no meat, no fish, no eggs, no milk, cheese or butter, no leather or animal products provisional wing of the party.

 

[PlacidCasual]

Well I'm moving in the other direction. We are really close to getting our own smallholding. 10 acres for me to do with as I please. Which initially will include letting a farmer collect hay from it because I know I won't be able to utilise all the space myself.

But the plan is pigs from weaners, grow to weight, slaughter and then I'll do the butchery nose to tail.
Chickens for eggs immediately, we do that now, but build up to chicken for meat and maybe the odd goose or turkey.
Tempted with getting some sheep one day but that's aspirational.
Carry on with the bee keeping.
Hopefully build up the veg and fruit gardening and ultimately build a glass house.

I just have an interest in growing and making my own food not looking for self sufficiency per se.

 

[Ahleckz]

Well then it is a very odd belief system, because it will result in far fewer animal lives.

Are you being stupid on purpose? People care about living animals and ensuring that they don't suffer unnecessarily, which they do due to farming and slaughtering, not hypothetical animals. It's like how I care about children. But, I don't think we should ban condoms because "every sperm is sacred" (they aren't, by the way).

 

[Jono8]

Are you being stupid on purpose? People care about living animals and ensuring that they don't suffer unnecessarily, which they do due to farming and slaughtering, not hypothetical animals. It's like how I care about children. But, I don't think we should ban condoms because "every sperm is sacred" (they aren't, by the way).

Are you being obtuse or just thick? I'm not a vegan but it isnt hard to understand what they are saying.

No, perhaps you should read my previous posts in this thread...

Like i have said before, there is no morally correct answer (as long as good animal welfare is maintained). It is more of a philosophical question, and whilst i respect the views of people that want to be vegan, they have no moral or factual high ground.

If we ensure good animal welfare, the question becomes:

Is it better to give an animal a life (but where it is ultimately killed and eaten, just like it likely would be in the natural world/food chain) , or not give an animal a life at all.

There really is no correct answer, from a factual or moral perspective. It is an interesting question, but neither party are "correct".