***Gym Exercise Guide, and Form Discussion/Feedback***

[LiE]

High bar - olympic style squat, uses more quads and requires more flexibility to get a strong bottom position.

Low bar - more hamstring/glute and less quads, you sit back more and the back angle is different. This is the traditional way they powerlifters squat.

This video looks useful for highlighting some bits, I haven't watched it all so there may be some weird advice but should give you an idea of the differences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRl4ZCAZUB0

Edit: it's actually a pretty good video that explains the 2 variants well.

 

[Deception]

I wasn't even aware there was a difference, shows what I know. I just assumed the bar went in that position.

I'm assuming there's much debate as to which is the better of the two but surely if I am doing the low-bar movement, I should just move the bar into the low-bar position and work with that?

Also if you're going to do low bar, then just aim for parallel. Try it all out and get another vid going

 

[Barks]

Cheers Lie going to watch that now.

Is there anything you can see in the vids I uploaded which looks dangerous i.e. likely to cause serious spinal/lower back injury? I am still concerned about the bum tuck or am I imagining it?

 

[Somnambulist]

Plz read:
http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/01/low-bar-vs-high-bar-squatting/

For low bar you only need to go to parallel, and thin/flat/no shoes are best, and it's what most powerlifters will use since you can push more weight with it (all things being equal) - you can still high bar crazy weight too but obviously in terms of world record squats...

High bar is optional whether you want to go parallel (some call this a hybrid squat) or Oly style ATG/ass to grass, although bottoming out the squat generally calls for Oly shoes even if you're pretty flexible (which is why Oly lifters wear them). The high bar is usually regarded as having better transfer to other stuff, particularly for athletes, and it's obviously what Olympic lifters do as part of their assistance work for the snatch and C&J (along with a ton of other stuff).

They're similar but different at the same time, and which one you choose to focus on is largely goal dependent, neither is 'better' - some people just don't get on with one or the other. Most here squat low bar, but that's because we have way more people into powerlifting.

For high bar this video is pretty golden:

With weight:

Narrow stance is narrow!

Also vital for any squat:

 

[mrthingyx]

In the absence of icecold, I will be availble for service (yes...) once I get access to YouTube... it appears Chinese webfiltering is currently preventing me from watching any videos on it.

High bar is often skipped on this forum because it does require better flexibility than low bar, and people aspire to lift like powerlifters (i.e. bigger numbers).

If you're going for aesthetics, then it's arbitrary, but I find high bar a lot easier to control than low bar, even though I use both. This is because low bar gives me that buuuuuuuuuuuurn in the posterior chain, whereas high bar gives me massive leg pump and carries over nicely to my front squatting.

But then, I'm an aspirational Olympic lifter, not a powerlifter.

 

[LiE]

But then, I'm a phaggot lifter, not a powerlifter.

Fixed

 

[mrthingyx]

Fixed

You wound me, sir!

However, in line with one of Freefaller's comments, I do spend for more time on technique than actually lifting, making me a bit DYEL.

 

[mrthingyx]

Here we go. This is actually the last set. I stuck with a low weight and tried to get as low as I could.

p.s. try not to laugh at the step back/step forward thing... not too sure!

http://youtu.be/MHfSFQbcYSM

And the next two are of me lifting my heaviest set. This is the most I can lift where I feel comfortably in control but still find it damn hard work.

rear view: http://youtu.be/MLSoFlgtC9Q
side view: http://youtu.be/tQ_K9vjcqOA

I'm most grateful to you guys for taking the time to look at these and give me feedback. I'm really determined to nail my form whether it requires a few tweaks or some major sorting out
Although I don't have any injuries etc today and feel great bear in mind that a few weeks ago I majorly hurt my lower back by trying to squat 110kg on the 3rd rep. Was it too much for me or was it my technique?

Hmmmm...

You're extending your back through the squat (look at the shadow on your t-shirt from the rear view), suggesting you aren't bracing properly. This then starts to flex as you push for greater depth at the bottom (look at the bottom of the squat from the side view). I'm guessing you're going for "chest up" whilst pushing for depth because your hamstrings, glutes and ankles aren't letting you drop further...

Also, knees out more. You'll hear this a gazillion times, but it really is that important. You are starting to get a valgus foot position where the arch collapses/rolls due to the knee travelling inside the line of the big toe. This is not good.

In the first video, your ankle mobility is definitely impacting your squat, but your bum doesn't tuck until you go below parallel, which is good. You're still extending your spine mid lift each way, so be mindful of this, too. Based on the comparison between "light" and "heavy" squat videos, I'm guessing your core isn't up to supporting the weight as you get a lot deeper on the lighter stuff, and your legs aren't strong enough to drive up and out the (deep) hole.

For ankle mobility, I cheat by using Olympic lifting shoes to give me some more quasi-range:

As you're doing high bar, I'd do a couple of things to help.

First off, don't try those heavy weights again because you're shafting yourself with sub-optimal technique.

Second, mobility: stretch your hamstrings, glutes and adductors. Also ankle mobility.

Third: core work. Really learn to lock your core off as your squat. Increasing your mobility will give you the range you want/need.

Fourth: awesome work in shooting for a high-bar squat.

 

[icecold]

To slightly contradict the advice above (<3), he might not need any mobility work at all. While most people have all kinds of mobility issues, if they were to chase them all down at the beginning then they wouldn't be doing much lifting for a few months. We need to establish the minimum effective dose, which we will only know when Scott tries to correct his squat.

What I see in that squat is sloppy positions and poor motor control, but from those videos you can't tell if he's missing range in any of the important joints.

Step one would be to learn what the top and bottom of a squat should look like (there are MANY videos in this thread that show this, not least the ones recently posted), and then you need to learn how to correctly transition between the two with the correct sequence of muscle activation.

Core control is definitely a big missing piece, but again the priority should be learning what to do with your core during the movement. Most people sorely need more core work, but correct core activation is a skill that needs to be learned not only to perform the big lifts, but also to actually be able to do useful core exercises.

Some cues:

- Bar position. Doesn't look completely comfortable, but this might be caused by the general movement errors.

- More stiffness everywhere. Core and upper back need to be contracting hard.

- Spine neutrality. From head to tail bone you need your spine to be in a straight line. I know you'll see conflicting advice about head position, perhaps even from seemingly respectable sources, but anything but neutral is wrong.

- Knees out. With your current stance they need to be at least 6" wider.

- Engage your glutes. At the moment they are quite passive, but you need to fix the above before you can properly address this.


Also, high bar is awesome. Don't feel that you need to do low bar because most people do it. The reality is that most people's low bar is so bad that they will be getting minimal useful training effect from it anyway.

Or, learn how to do both.

 

[mrthingyx]

To slightly contradict the advice above (<3)....

I don't see it as a contradiction at all (<3), more like a pin-pointing of the issue rather than my broad-brush attempt.

You do this better than I do, after all.

 

[icecold]

Only because I've found people stupid enough to let me experiment on them in real life

 

[mrthingyx]

Only because I've found people stupid enough to let me experiment on them in real life

You must be very... persuasive.

 

[Delvis]

 

[icecold]

Don't worry Delvis, experimenting on you would have created too big of a bias due to how snapped up you are

 

[Delvis]

Yoooooooooooooooou son of a *****!

 

[duvet77]

man, I need to get my **** together and fix myself. I might try some deadlifts at the weekend.

 

[Barks]

I wasn't bricking it about my Squat session tomorrow I am now!

Firstly thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

One important point to make to put the questions below in context. At the moment I'm attempting to cut. I'm very much adhering to the minimalist approach and doing 2-3 sessions a week of compound movements. That's it, I'm only on a R/T 1800kcal/2800kcal cycle so overtraining is not going to be made an issue. I have omitted deadlifts for now as I want to focus on sorting out my squats first. My squats usually involve a few sets of low-rep warm ups on very low weight before the first working set.

Just a few initial questions and then I'm going to read it all through again:

1) Do I need to stop squatting completely and work on mobility/core or am I OK to lower the weight down to say 60kg or 140lbs and concentrate on form?

2) Should I scrap trying to get lean for now and go back to slow bulking. Surely it will be difficult to strengthen various muscles when my body is catabolic mode? Again this could just be a correction issue like Icecold said.

3) When you say do mobility work, is this supposed to be done as a warmup in terms of stretches or this something I need to dedicate a session to on a different day to when I squat? As for strengthening my core, I've always been told things like crunches are a complete waste of time (or is this only in the context of 18 year olds thinking it will lead to rock hard abs) and squatting is more than enough for doing the job. What exactly should I be doing to strengthen my core?

4) I'm just confused about what my priorities should be in the gym right now and need someone to punch me in the face and tell me what to do!

Main notes for tomorrow from what you've all written:

- Warm up prior with stretches (will look at Icecold's 'better squatting' post for this)
- Knees out!
- Engage core.
- More stiffness all round.
- I'm going to read tonight up on the mechanics of squats and see if I can gain a greater understanding of things like spine neutrality as currently I don't feel I know what I'm really doing.

Many thanks again.

 

[Delvis]

Keep the top of your body tight as well (the more stiffness all round part) pull the bar in to your back and don't go floppy!

And chest up!

 

[mrthingyx]

1) No. Squat light and work up as your technique improves. Keep posting videos so we can see how it's going.

2) Do some reading on the difference between strength and hypertrophy training: it is quite possible to get strong whilst on a cut, so... Regardless, if you can see abz, you need to bulk unless you're going on a beach holiday in the near future.

3) I do my mobility as a warmup during my warmup, if that makes sense? Roller, get mobile, do some overhead squats, do some stretching AND THEN into my work-out proper.

4) List of stuff is fine, but the priorities aren't necessarily in the right place (it's arbitrary, anyway). A tight/stiff core is vital to all your big lifts, be they bench, deadlift or squat, so it should be a basic assumption for everything training anyway.

 

[Barks]

When I bench press I always tense the **** out of my core, I just don't know why it's letting me down with my squats.

The stiffness thing... so it's core, upper back, chest and glutes?

If I stay squatting light for now and focus purely on technique I will not find it that physically taxing. Would it be a good idea to throw in 2-3 sets on the leg press too?