Harmless 39 year old alcoholic woman tortured and beaten to death by girls aged 13 and 14.

I can understand in the past when it was dog vs dog, someone killing another (though still wrong) and taking their clothes or food to survive but this was done for no other reason than sick fun and they seemed to enjoy it.
 
I am not the usual GD type but this was sick and it is probably for the best with your delusional attitude.

I have said my part, now unsubbing.
 
malachi said:
13/14 year old know right from wrong.

They knew this was wrong. No excuse.
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Their carnal instincts overpowered them, their desire for revenge over an adult was too strong, to make somebody suffer the way they have suffered.

Children from care homes have an exceptional amount of issues. It's based on their mistrust, mainly of adults, due to a sense of abandonment and lack of moral guidance from people they trust and admire.

There are plenty of articles on the web.

To think thousands of grown adults are baying for their blood is obscene when in reality they are confused, frightened children who won't fully understand the gravity of their action.

It felt right to them, they felt empowered, if gave them an opportunity to inflict suffering on an adult as they have as children suffered for years.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18520738/
 
jsmoke said:
How can people be so harsh on 13 and 14 years olds who have been in care homes. You've no idea what they have been through. I struggle to believe they are fully accountable for their actions.
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Who was accountable then?

If you see someone bleeding, you know its not normal.

If you hear someone screaming, you know its not normal.

They clearly took pleasure in their acts, stopping to take photos and selfies as they continued.

Unashamed, and understanding of the pain and horror they were inflicting. If they thought it was normal, why had this never happened to them, or anyone around them? Why did they decide to take pictures?

Although not pre-meditated, the murder wasn't a one-off explosion of rage. The length of time the girls spent battering Ms Wrightson, the fact they had several breaks to sit around and drink and smoke, the way they chose weapons from around the house - and perhaps most damningly, the fact they had a two-hour break when they visited a friend before returning to 14 Stephen Street to carry on with their attack - scuppered any defence based on a lack of control.
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It's hard for me to fathom how people try to conjure up some sort of justification for utterly depraved crimes such as these, it really is. I'm almost as speechless as when I first read the article.

If you do something like this, it's got sod all to do with 'bad childhood' and 'bad care homes' lmao. You are simply sick and twisted, just like those two kids that abducted a toddler and then tied him down to a railway.
 
jsmoke said:
Their carnal instincts overpowered them, their desire for revenge over an adult was too strong, to make somebody suffer the way they have suffered.

Children from care homes have an exceptional amount of issues. It's based on their mistrust, mainly of adults, due to a sense of abandonment and lack of moral guidance from people they trust and admire.

There are plenty of articles on the web.

To think thousands of grown adults are baying for their blood is obscene when in reality they are confused, frightened children who won't fully understand the gravity of their action.

It felt right to them, they felt empowered, if gave them an opportunity to inflict suffering on an adult as they have as children suffered for years.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18520738/
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You are a dangerous and perverse individual and it for people like you that we have so many murders, rapists and bad people roaming the streets.

We cannot fix everyone nor can we go back in time and change their childhood.

But we can lock them.l up and sure that they never inflict pain upon anyone else in the future.
 
The Running Man said:
You are a dangerous and perverse individual and it for people like you that we have so many murders, rapists and bad people roaming the streets.

We cannot fix everyone nor can we go back in time and change their childhood.

But we can lock them.l up and sure that they never inflict pain upon anyone else in the future.
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That's a bit of an overreach, I'm specifically concentrating on children from care homes as my mother used to teach them at primary level and children that came from all kinds of difficult upbringings. I know there's a lot of pain involved with these kids, some are borderline feral. Their sense of judgement between right and wrong is not always very sophisticated relative to the expectations of an advanced first world environment. They very easily react when they feel threatened and confused.

You'd really have to work with them and spend time with them before you had any understanding or empathy I'd imagine.

As for adult murderers, I'm all for locking them up.
 
jsmoke said:
Their carnal instincts overpowered them, their desire for revenge over an adult was too strong, to make somebody suffer the way they have suffered.

Children from care homes have an exceptional amount of issues. It's based on their mistrust, mainly of adults, due to a sense of abandonment and lack of moral guidance from people they trust and admire.

There are plenty of articles on the web.

To think thousands of grown adults are baying for their blood is obscene when in reality they are confused, frightened children who won't fully understand the gravity of their action.

It felt right to them, they felt empowered, if gave them an opportunity to inflict suffering on an adult as they have as children suffered for years.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18520738/
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Sounds like they have no place in "normal" society and will continue to be a threat on release, if they're that broken.

Good luck fixing them.

I hope they don't get a secret release somewhere where the neighbours are completely unaware. Which of course is exactly what will happen.

Would you want them as neighbours?
 
jsmoke said:
That's a bit of an overreach, I'm specifically concentrating on children from care homes as my mother used to teach them at primary level and children that came from all kinds of difficult upbringings. I know there's a lot of pain involved with these kids, some are borderline feral. Their sense of judgement between right and wrong is not always very sophisticated relative to the expectations of an advanced first world environment. They very easily react when they feel threatened and confused.

You'd really have to work with them and spend time with them before you had any understanding or empathy I'd imagine.

As for adult murderers, I'm all for locking them up.
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Really?

Unless they were born into Saw's torture chambers then I just don't believe you. And if they really are that bad then how can you change them now? Either way they would need locking up for a really long time.
 
Sadly these kids aren't the exception these days.

I don't know about anyone elses town, but there are regular groups of kids gather in different parts of my town causing mischief. A couple of them are known to everyone in the town.

One video posted on a local FB group showed a group of kids chasing an old man with MS up the road.

I'm not advocating this, but sooner or later these chavs are going to pick on the wrong person.

Maybe to a degree its a natural state that as we move further away from the history of the world wars each generation as less and less respect for the previous one? Though I can't remember this behaviour being passively condoned by their peers like it seems to be these days.

There can be no excuse for their behaviour. At 14 year old, they are only 2 years off leaving school!
 
BowdonUK said:
Sadly these kids aren't the exception these days.

I don't know about anyone elses town, but there are regular groups of kids gather in different parts of my town causing mischief. A couple of them are known to everyone in the town.

One video posted on a local FB group showed a group of kids chasing an old man with MS up the road.

I'm not advocating this, but sooner or later these chavs are going to pick on the wrong person.

Maybe to a degree its a natural state that as we move further away from the history of the world wars each generation as less and less respect for the previous one? Though I can't remember this behaviour being passively condoned by their peers like it seems to be these days.

There can be no excuse for their behaviour. At 14 year old, they are only 2 years off leaving school!
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Yeah but its not their fault.

Don't you see? Its everyone else's. Maybe we need to change the definition of right and wrong and then they won't be doing anything bad at all!
 
The Running Man said:
Yeah but its not their fault.

Don't you see? Its everyone else's. Maybe we need to change the definition of right and wrong and then they won't be doing anything bad at all!
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It's only getting worse. There was a survey or nurseries back in 2019 that showed some/many nurseries have banned staff from using the word "naughty". Apparently telling kids they are being "naughty" is bad for their fragile psyche.

I think either the modern era is a huge social experiment, or the loons have well and truly taken over the asylum :p
 
jsmoke said:
Their carnal instincts overpowered them, their desire for revenge over an adult was too strong, to make somebody suffer the way they have suffered.

Children from care homes have an exceptional amount of issues. It's based on their mistrust, mainly of adults, due to a sense of abandonment and lack of moral guidance from people they trust and admire.

There are plenty of articles on the web.

To think thousands of grown adults are baying for their blood is obscene when in reality they are confused, frightened children who won't fully understand the gravity of their action.

It felt right to them, they felt empowered, if gave them an opportunity to inflict suffering on an adult as they have as children suffered for years.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18520738/
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You're arguing that they're insane and incapable of differentiating between one person and another. That might well be true. It does nothing to reduce how dangerous they are. It just means that the appropriate place for them is a secure mental hospital/jail rather than a normal jail.

And they're not children. They're adolescents. But even if they were children, they weren't confused, frightened and lacking understanding of the gravity of their actions. This was a torture murder carried out over a period of hours with a break in between. It wasn't a panicked, thoughtless lashing out.

No doubt it did feel right to them and made them feel empowered and no doubt they enjoyed inflicting suffering on a person. Just like, for example, Fred West did. Or anyone else who tortures and murders people for jollies. That why people like that do what they do.
 
jsmoke said:
That's a bit of an overreach, I'm specifically concentrating on children from care homes as my mother used to teach them at primary level and children that came from all kinds of difficult upbringings. I know there's a lot of pain involved with these kids, some are borderline feral. Their sense of judgement between right and wrong is not always very sophisticated relative to the expectations of an advanced first world environment. They very easily react when they feel threatened and confused.

You'd really have to work with them and spend time with them before you had any understanding or empathy I'd imagine.

As for adult murderers, I'm all for locking them up.
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You can't be serious. These people have absolutely zero place in society and the reason things like this happen is because we tolerate it. If it were me, they'd have received the death sentence, no questions asked. We've got enough going on in this world, we don't need evil creatures like this making it worse.

For reference, I've worked in many, many institutions which take care of all manner of mentally unstable people, as well as worked in Brixton Prison for four months amongst all the inmates. My wife is also currently four years in to a psychology degree and is studying this exact sort of thing at the moment. As in to the letter, not vaguely, so I like to think I know a fair amount about this topic (but far from sufficient to make factual claims obviously, but enough to have an opinion on it). Most people in prison are just basic average joes like you and me who got in to a fight, drove drunk, that kind of thing. Not career criminals, and I fully support giving people the support they need to reintegrate in to society.

This is a very different scenario however.

Read this sentence and tell me you think these kids can be rehabilitated and brought back in to society:

She was hit with a shovel, a TV, a coffee table and a stick studded with screws after she let the pair into her Stephen Street home in December 2014.

The girls posted a photograph on Snapchat showing them smiling with Miss Wrightson pictured in the background shortly before her death.
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I would also like to point out that this innocent woman was tortured for seven hours before dying, who knows how long it'd have gone on for had she not passed away.

After removing them from society, I'd take a long, hard look at their situation and find out why they got to the point that they carried out such a heinous crime and preventing it from happening again.
 
Diddums said:
You can't be serious. These people have absolutely zero place in society and the reason things like this happen is because we tolerate it. If it were me, they'd have received the death sentence, no questions asked. We've got enough going on in this world, we don't need evil creatures like this making it worse.

For reference, I've worked in many, many institutions which take care of all manner of mentally unstable people, as well as worked in Brixton Prison for four months amongst all the inmates. My wife is also currently four years in to a psychology degree and is studying this exact sort of thing at the moment. As in to the letter, not vaguely, so I like to think I know a fair amount about this topic (but far from sufficient to make factual claims obviously, but enough to have an opinion on it). Most people in prison are just basic average joes like you and me who got in to a fight, drove drunk, that kind of thing. Not career criminals, and I fully support giving people the support they need to reintegrate in to society.

This is a very different scenario however.

Read this sentence and tell me you think these kids can be rehabilitated and brought back in to society:



I would also like to point out that this innocent woman was tortured for seven hours before dying, who knows how long it'd have gone on for had she not passed away.

After removing them from society, I'd take a long, hard look at their situation and find out why they got to the point that they carried out such a heinous crime and preventing it from happening again.
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So you'd give the death penalty to a 13 year old?

I'd like you see you propose this on say YouTube or social media and get a wider range of responses. Surely people baying for blood is just as bad as this crime itself.

Anyway we've been debating this for the last 30 years, it was exactly the same in the 90s, 00s, 10s, one side say "hang them!" and the other side say, "rehabilitate them!" it's how the system is setup. I just see your attitude as pure eye for an eye with no understanding about human nature and motivations for crimes they commit. It's total arrogance and self rightouesness.
 
That's crazy. There sort of people like the Jamie Bulger kills should be locked up for life. The Bulger killers got let out and they reoffended. If they're doing this sort of stuff is a child they're clearly not wired right
 
I think that if the standards of rehabilitation in our prisons were much, much higher, I'd be in agreement of the release of rehabilitated offenders who committed their crimes when below adult age, and an argument for protecting their anonymity is there to be had. In real life however, where budget pressures and prison population numbers seem to drive early releases, the perpetrators of these type of crimes should stay behind bars.
 
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