Heat Pumps: anyone have one/thought about it?

[bimbleuk]

This is one of those areas where the octopus approach falls a bit short as the surveyors are not experienced installers.

I’d suggest speaking to them once you get the quote back as you’ll likely get more sense from the technical team.

I had 3 surveys and 1 final installer visit.

1st was new and missed a couple of things so the 2nd surveyor picked up on this and came back to check.

My 3rd visit was due to being offered the Cosy 6 just in case my planning was refused but would require relocation down the garden plus a choice between the small airing cupboard over a stairway or the loft space.

The installer visited to finalise the location next to the house so no Cosy 6 (or groundworks) and agreed the loft was a better location due to standing room access. However required the loft hatch opening out which I did myself within a week.

Whole process has taken a year but Octopus were still setting up their internal processes and hiring like mad and I believe it it should be much quicker now unless demand keeps increasing.

 

[stuman]

Anybody with a well-running pump let me know what their daily COPs have been? We’ve had ours in for 4 days now and after some fettling yesterday I had a COP of 4.6 today - but it was warm - it’s a very modern house with underfloor, so it should be good - but I’m not sure if 4.6 is good for a slightly warmer day?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

4.6 is excellent, that’s running very nicely. I assume that doesn’t include hot water?

I don’t really track it as I don’t run mine in the most efficient way because of my time of use tariff, solar and batteries. It’s cheaper to run it harder when I have cheap electricity and I increase my flow temperature by 10C during those times.

It’s not all about the SCOP as that’s one part of the equation, particularly when my average import from the grid is 10-12p/kwh at this time of year.

The last time I looked was about a month ago and lifetime was 3.6 including hot water. That’s really not bad given it’s running at high power for a few hours every day.

 

[TNA]

We got our £200 refunded. Heat loss come to about 13000. I can get that down to 11000. But won't bother. Until they can do the whole thing for around 3K in the future I don't see the point.

My boiler is not too old, so should last a good 10 more years. Can reasses then unless a offer pops up before that.

Good news is my pipes are fine. They would just need to install new radiators.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Just to manage expectations, I doubt you’ll ever get it for £3k unless the grant is significantly increased.

Half the cost is labour and that’s only going to go up. Heat pumps themselves are not getting cheaper because they already benefit from economies of scale.

The only benefit it’s potentially from competition and the race to the bottom. As it stands, other installers seem to be letting Octopus crack on with that - just look at the prices @Ron-ski is getting for and easy install with no radiator changes.

If the government move the green levies from electricity to gas, that may change the game mind.

 

[TNA]

Just to manage expectations, I doubt you’ll ever get it for £3k unless the grant is significantly increased.

Yep. That is what I am thinking. At some point this may happen.

I just don't understand why it would cost 15K if my pipe size is fine and they don't need to lift up floor boards.

 

[TNA]

Half the cost is labour

I might get my plumber to change them over in the summer on the cheap on day once I have the info in what size rads needed

That will leave them to install the cylinder and heatpump.

But again. No rush. Would be nice. But not at 15K minus current grant.

 

[stuman]

4.6 is excellent, that’s running very nicely. I assume that doesn’t include hot water?

I don’t really track it as I don’t run mine in the most efficient way because of my time of use tariff, solar and batteries. It’s cheaper to run it harder when I have cheap electricity and I increase my flow temperature by 10C during those times.

It’s not all about the SCOP as that’s one part of the equation, particularly when my average import from the grid is 10-12p/kwh at this time of year.

The last time I looked was about a month ago and lifetime was 3.6 including hot water. That’s really not bad given it’s running at high power for a few hours every day.

I’m also playing with time of day (only for hot water though) current plan is to bring the water up earlier so that when it switches back to heating it can make up the shortfall (no heating whilst water is charging) still during cheap rate. Current hot water is COP of 3.4 (only taking tank to 45 degrees with a legionella run on Friday ready for weekend chores!).

Will be interesting to see where it levels out at over the next few weeks. At some point I need to decide / experiment with having the buffer removed / re piped as volume….

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I might get my plumber to change them over in the summer on the cheap on day once I have the info in what size rads needed

That will leave them to install the cylinder and heatpump.

But again. No rush. Would be nice. But not at 15K minus current grant.

A lot of the problem is the paperwork.

To access the grant you need to be an MCS installer (cost), you may even need to have ‘trust mark’ also (can’t member but that costs too) you need to supply an insurance backed warranty (cost, also not worth the paper it’s written on), you need to deal with the DNO (cost), manufacturers want you to do their course before they will warranty the unit itself (cost), planning can be a pita due to the noise test despite them being quieter than a boiler which is inside your house (cost).

The list goes on and on.

Where as any gas safe or the oil equivalent person can just slap in a boiler pretty much where ever they want with limited other considerations.

One person bands can’t really do heat pumps effectively due to all the overheads, that and you couldn’t move one on your own.

 

[TNA]

A lot of the problem is the paperwork.

To access the grant you need to be an MCS installer (cost), you may even need to have ‘trust mark’ also (can’t member but that costs too) you need to supply an insurance backed warranty (cost, also not worth the paper it’s written on), you need to deal with the DNO (cost), manufacturers want you to do their course before they will warranty the unit itself (cost), planning can be a pita due to the noise test despite them being quieter than a boiler which is inside your house (cost).

The list goes on and on.

Where as any gas safe or the oil equivalent person can just slap in a boiler pretty much where ever they want with limited other considerations.

Do you think they (the government) will ever streamline that?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Not if you want to take advantage of the grant.

Most of it is there to try and professionalise the industry, build consumer confidence and protect consumers from fly by night and dodgy installers. However, there is no such thing as a a free lunch, it all costs money.

Manufacturers are not much better either and also need to do a much better job of making their products more user friendly and easier to commission.

The manual on my Daikin might as well be in Chinese. It’s managed to simultaneously be written in technical language and also contain hardly any information about what each setting actually does and how it impacts the way the heat pump behaves. It’s actually junk.

 

[PermaChanged]

Definitely not getting as much efficiency as I should be - turns out "damm blockers" (Part ACUG830) were not installed when they should have been as part of our renovation!

Window fitters contacted, to install as should have been from the outset - reckon I can claim for excess energy bills!? Got 6 gaps of this size.

 

[reef]

There is a bit of a push to stop upgrading people to 100 amp fuses, with 80 being the max and the preference above that is for 3 phase.

The document is published by National Grid, and came into effect in June 2023, it even goes as far to state that 100 amp fuses may be down graded to 80 amp. I've no idea how strict DNO's are though, and every DNO could be different.

Obviously 100 amp fuses are still being fitted, and it looks like UKPN will still fit a 100 amp fuse, but this document suggests change could be coming, but then changing to 3 phase would be far too expensive for most end users, perhaps that does affect policy.

https://www.nationalgrid.co.uk/downloads-view-reciteme/633928

.

This is exactly it. Northern power only fit 80A fuses since 2023 and will actively downgrade any 100A fuses they come across.

This is the only thing holding up my install now. I'm hoping they use some sense and apply the diversity calculation. No one would ever use 2 electric showers and 2 ovens at the same time, especially not at 11.30pm to 5.30am when the car and batteries would be charging. We've never exceeded about 10kW yet in their load test it's well above this.

If they suggest 3 phase at my cost then that'll be the end of the road for us on a heat pump. I would need a new inverter for the solar then too.

 

[Ron-ski]

If they suggest 3 phase at my cost then that'll be the end of the road for us on a heat pump. I would need a new inverter for the solar then too.

Not really, inverter would still supply one phase, just wouldn't be any use for stuff on other phases which could just be the car charger.

Could you temporarily remove one shower or convert one to run off the hot water tank????

It'll be interesting what happens when they come to install mine.

 

[TNA]

Definitely not getting as much efficiency as I should be - turns out "damm blockers" (Part ACUG830) were not installed when they should have been as part of our renovation!

Window fitters contacted, to install as should have been from the outset - reckon I can claim for excess energy bills!? Got 6 gaps of this size.

How did they work out heat was escaping from there?

All my survey guy did was measure rooms, look if double glazing and where the radiators were.

 

[ryhoper1]

This is exactly it. Northern power only fit 80A fuses since 2023 and will actively downgrade any 100A fuses they come across.

This is the only thing holding up my install now. I'm hoping they use some sense and apply the diversity calculation. No one would ever use 2 electric showers and 2 ovens at the same time, especially not at 11.30pm to 5.30am when the car and batteries would be charging. We've never exceeded about 10kW yet in their load test it's well above this.

If they suggest 3 phase at my cost then that'll be the end of the road for us on a heat pump. I would need a new inverter for the solar then too.

It was only in Aug they put my 100amp fuse in so I'm not sure how accurate that is

 

[PermaChanged]

How did they work out heat was escaping from there?

All my survey guy did was measure rooms, look if double glazing and where the radiators were.

Oh this wasn't any heat pump engineer / survey related - this was me as the homeowner thinking "this doesn't seem right"! The heat pump has still been keeping the kitchen area toasty (despite a cat/dog flap which leaks plenty of air too), but it's never going to be beneficial to efficiency to have air leaks in the property.

 

[reef]

Not really, inverter would still supply one phase, just wouldn't be any use for stuff on other phases which could just be the car charger.

Could you temporarily remove one shower or convert one to run off the hot water tank????

It'll be interesting what happens when they come to install mine.

Yes, that might have to be the plan with the shower if we get knocked back.

What happens standing charge-wise on three phase?

 

[reef]

It was only in Aug they put my 100amp fuse in so I'm not sure how accurate that is

Is that Northern power? If so that's promising to hear.

 

[Ron-ski]

Do you think they (the government) will ever streamline that?

Nope, MCS has been around for too long, and got too powerful, wasting money on worthless paperwork is one of this country's specialties.

What happens standing charge-wise on three phase?

According to Google, a 3 phase meter only has a single MPAN number, so only one standing charge.