Heaven and Hell

Castiel said:
However he doesn't limit himself to pushing Darwinism or combating Creationism...he makes the fundamental mistake of attributing extreme values to ALL aspects of religious thought as well as pushing Darwinism (if he is even doing that, as Darwinism is increasing seen as outdated) he seeks to associate Science, specifically evolutionally science with a basis for proof that there is not a God...something again that Science simply doesn't address.

Like many fundamentalists who are trying to justify a personal agenda he not only misrepresents what he opposes, he misrepresents what he values at the same time.

It is a shame because at one time he was someone whose opinion I held in great esteem, but the older he becomes the more his argument is based in rhetoric and less in rationality....I don't know why, maybe in the face of criticism he feels he needs to defend himself with increasing belligerence, who can say.
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What's replacing Darwinism? Surely his theory is still accurate? I'd be interested to learn whatever it is you're referring too :)

You may be right with regards to his personal agenda. Once again, though, I think he's just, understandably, fed up. Evolution does ruin a lot of religious teachings though. The reason why I find him really interesting though is his huge knowledge of Darwinism. Reading The God Delusion I've found the chapter on Darwin and his theories really interesting, and it's insane how much stuff you can justify with it (whether he's clutching at straws with some of it, I don't know).
 
I know that there is no feeling or memory before birth, and I would imagine the same after death, but as I'm manifested myself inside the body that I'm in, I can't help thinking that my manifest i.e. my feeling, my existence will carry on inside someone else, or even in an animal. The only thing I won't have is the memory of my previous being. Sorry if my post reads as childish, but I do believe that you have to be someone or something else otherwise the after-life would be boring!
 
dirtychinchilla said:
What's replacing Darwinism? Surely his theory is still accurate? I'd be interested to learn whatever it is you're referring too :)

You may be right with regards to his personal agenda. Once again, though, I think he's just, understandably, fed up. Evolution does ruin a lot of religious teachings though. The reason why I find him really interesting though is his huge knowledge of Darwinism. Reading The God Delusion I've found the chapter on Darwin and his theories really interesting, and it's insane how much stuff you can justify with it (whether he's clutching at straws with some of it, I don't know).
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Nothing is replacing Darwinism, it is simply that Modern Evolutionary Theory has moved on, Darwinism doesn't consider Mendalism for example and many Scientists feel that Darwinism doesn't fully represent modern knowledge on Evolutionary Theory....this is something I suspect that Dawkins understands only too well.

Evolution only impacts on Conservative Biblical Literalism it doesn't impact on the vast majority of theological thought.....this is something that many people who use Darwinism or Evolution to attack religion seem to ignore, kt is a valid argument against Literal Creationism, it is not an argument against Religion.
 
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semi-pro waster said:
I don't doubt for a second it's frustrating for him but my sympathy is limited as it's a position he chooses to put himself in. He is, or should be, aware that trying to use expertise in one area as supporting you in another is something of a fallacy yet he uses his pre-eminence as a scientist to push his cause as an anti-theist as if that should lend credence to his position.
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Quite...unlike Dennett and Hitchens he is not versed well enough in social, political and theological philosophy to compete rationally and that manifests in the aforementioned frustration and the resulting belligerence. It is one of the flaws of many adherents to the New Atheism movement which arose after 9/11.....
 
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RationalGaze said:
I don't believe in spirits, but heaven would be a pretty awful place. Imagine living for 100 years, then 1000, and then try to imagine a million years. Eternity is even longer than that. What could you possibly do to keep yourself interested in existing for all that time? And what would the point be if you had no goals to achieve, like building shelter, hunting/gathering/farming food? And imagine how terrible it must be for famous people - there would be millions of spirits constantly wanting to meet Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Einstein etc (assuming they had all gone to heaven). And heaven would be filled with the spirits of dead foetuses and babies who have died over the millenia, and assuming everyone magically speaks a common heavenly language, what would these spirits possibly have to talk about since they never lived a life on Earth? And what if some annoying friend or relative found you in heaven, how would you escape them for eternity? And would you even be allowed to say "**** off!" in heaven?
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Sums up how i feel about it all. :D
 
Very interesting reading this topic. Personally, my beliefs are based on evidence, empirical evidence for the most part. I also have read The God Delusion by Dawkins and God Is Not Great by Hitchens, both books which have been alluded to in this thread. However, books like these did not make up my mind for me regarding the religion v's atheism debate. They simply re-affirmed what i had always thought. I know this is because of my upbringing. I was brought up in a secular household. Religion was talked about, but i never had to listen to my parents proselytize toward me. Although i did get that at my C of E school. For me, this is the point. It depends massively how you are brought up as to what religious views or lack thereof, you will have as an adult. So, to get back to the topic starters question, my answer would be no, i don't believe in heaven and hell. I'm living this life to the max, cause i believe i won't get another. :D
 
I wonder how long it will take evolution to remove that part of the mind that makes people believe in stuff like this, its been proven to be a left over instinctive response to higher brain function, mixed in with 'correct' upbringing makes people truely believe in what we now call religion.

Course back in the day when smart monkeys appeared its helpful to have an instinctive feeling that there is something greater than themselves and to push on despite all the odds - cant have logical monkeys work out in some circumstances that there is little point in 'carrying on' , it wouldnt benefit the species.

Of course this instinctive feeling has had a 3 letter word slapped on it now, 'god'

Just my 2 pence, based on research, observation, statistical tests and me pulling all the info together to something plausable.

Yeh its never gonna be 100% either way, just the likely hood of if its true or not.
 
Arnie said:
Does anyone believe in Heaven or Hell? If so, why?

If you don't, why do you believe the concepts were created?

:)
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We humans are only on this planet to purify ourselves so we can ascend back to the divine realms we emaniated, some say fell, from. Human beings have become so divorced from there true nature and higher consciousness that not only do not perform this purification most people have forgot that's what we're here to do and instead choose to indulge in there animalistic desires.

Guidance on how to achieve this purification has been provided througout the various ages with prophets and scriptures which later evolved into religions and to a large extent have devolved into idle worship, tribalism, ect.

Now if we choose to ignore our divine duty and cleanse ourselves and eliminate our lusts, prejudices, vices and other corruptions nature will do the process for us. This is what hell is, it's where a soul is taken out of the physical world and placed into the inferior worlds to be cleansed by nature and purged of it's 'evil'. The difference is because nature is a lot less efficient at purging us than if we choose to do the process ourselves when we are in physical plane and physical body so it takes a lot longer in the inferior worlds and is a lot more painful.

There are approximately nine regions to hell each region worse than the one before it and the region you end up in depends on your personal deeds and the karmic debt you owe. The normal person who isn't necesarily evil but not necesarily an angel and didn't make any serious attempt to pursue a rightous life will usualy end up in the first two regions for about 1000 years or so after which they will leave the inferior worlds and be reborn with there consciousness cleansed into the physical plane and hopefuly on there next cycle of incarnations they will ascend instead of descending. Someone very knowledgable in these matters told me about 80% of people are trapped in this cycle.

And contray to what the mainstream religions say you CANNOT save yourself by beleiving in Jesus, converting to Islam or going to the temple every Saturday. The only thing that will save you is your own inner redemption.

The least worse regions of hell are full of people who call themselves Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus that made the mistake of thinking that by believing in a pariticular faith they would automaticaly ascend to the superior worlds (heaven) and so didn't make any serious attempt to develop there consciousness.

Each human has 108 lifes or oppurtunites in the physical plane in which to spiritualy ascend after which you will descend into hell. All the karma you incured during those 108 lives has to be payed back and your soul is essentialy 'blitzed' and it's karmic debt and corruptions are burned away. This is why hell is expressed symbolicaly as big pit of fire. Very important to note is that idea of big pit of fire is symbolic and not the actuality. Though it's a very accurate symbolism.

If you commit very serious crimes like murder, rape, child abuse, ect you may descend as soon as you die regardless of how many lives in your 108 cycle you have left. Sometimes you punishment will be put on hold and your soul will be given another oppurtunity to reincarnate to the physical plane to redeem itself, but usualy most people fail as by the time they reach the age 3-4 years old they've forgotten about the divine responsibility. Most people can't remember what they were doing a few weeks ago let alone the last lifetime.

If a person does fail in there redemption, and most people do, your karmic debt that was put on hold will have to be repaid in the inferior worlds and for crimes like murder, rape you go into the worse regions of hell where you incur a lot more suffering. It's not so much that your being punished but those drives that made you commit these crimes are 'blitzed' out of you and they take a lot longer to destroy than would be the case for the people in the least worse regions.

One important point is not to see hell as the divine punishment of a wrathful God but more of a natural cycle of nature to cleanse itself. Though make no mistake it's very painful from our perspective.
 
Arnie said:
Does anyone believe in Heaven or Hell? If so, why?

If you don't, why do you believe the concepts were created?

:)
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Hell was created as a disincentive for engaging in behaviour that the ruling classes did not approve of for various reasons. Heaven was created as a reward for enduring suffering at the hands of said ruling classes.
 
magick said:
I've had direct experience of these realms and seen them for myself. Anyone can with the practice like concerntration exercises and meditation.

Also give these a listen. Explains the whole process much more in depth

http://gnosticradio.org/lectures/courses/death/
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What you're saying is breeze really. I would like to know what evidence there is for this 108 lives stuff.
 
Arnie said:
Does anyone believe in Heaven or Hell? If so, why?

If you don't, why do you believe the concepts were created?

:)
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No,

Hell was created as a scare mongoring tactic and wasn't actually mentioned by "Jesus", IIRC.

Heaven was created out of fear, people need to believe there is more than this / a reason to be.

Personally - I'm too intelligent to believe in either, but not completely dismiss the possibility (albeit incredibly tiny). Partially as a result, I suffer from quite bad depression - mainly focussing on how pointless life is.

The only reason to be alive is to continue the species & the majority of this species is not something I want to continue.

While I would like intelligence to become dominant, it won't any time soon as it's the poor & stupid who spawn the most, it's like a plague :(

I wish I could believe in some form of afterlife.

The best I can come up with is part of our matter turns in to photons, so "we" continue to exist after death, in the form of electromagnetic radiation. Third rock from the sun phrased it best. However, I can't connect any form of sentience to that existence, just as there was no sentience to the matter and energy that formed us.

The possibility that we are all elements of a computer simulation is far more likely than the existance of heaven/hell, albeit still incredibly inprobable.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
What you're saying is breeze really. I would like to know what evidence there is for this 108 lives stuff.
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Just let him go with it. Magick can type some truly outstanding insanity if he wants. It's best to sit back and wonder at it all. I am still sitting here slack-jawed after reading that. I fear for him. I really do.
 
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