Hero stabbed to death after chasing muggers who stole woman's bag

[Tefal]

The benefits on crime I'm meeting in the middle with you and taking the irrelevant argument (even though I find it less compelling). We haven't considered any other benefits so far.

What are the other benefits of concealed carry then?

Indeed, certainly Dunblane could have been prevented with existing laws and information at the time...

Indeed, although that shows you that the law doesn't always work.

Who, statistically, are already violating the rights of others. The number of crimes committed by CCW holders is so small they gave up tracking it...

Or just happen to be standing in the wrong place to get caught ion the crossfire.

Do accidental injures inflicted upon other during CCW holders interventions count as a crime?

At what point did these people give up their rights?

When you criminalise weapons, only criminals have weapons, is that the best solution?

Well criminals, trained firearms officers and the lawful owners of guns we have atm..

 

[Redman]

It's never the right thing to chase after someone like this. The same as if burglars raided my house and demanded me to tell them where all the money/valuables were. I'd tell them where everything was right away. Money and material possessions can all be replaced and my life is far more valuable than any amount of money.

R.I.P. Brave, but stupid.

Rubbish. If you think like this you might as well lie down and die, as you've already lost. People need more fight in them.

 

[Gaygle]

Rubbish. If you think like this you might as well lie down and die, as you've already lost. People need more fight in them.

... the obvious answer here is "What? Like Mr Singh?"

It's honestly not worth it. Have-a-go hero's are great when everything works out, but when it goes wrong, like in this case, it just makes it all the more tragic.

 

[Dolph]

What are the other benefits of concealed carry then?

It is primarily self defence, beyond that they are limited. Apologies if I've been wandering a bit on that.

Indeed, although that shows you that the law doesn't always work.

It shows that the law works, but law enforcement sometimes fails. The solution to that does not involve changing the law to apply more random restrictions on the general populace.

Or just happen to be standing in the wrong place to get caught ion the crossfire.

Which happens very rarely, no good shooter would risk that situation.

Do accidental injures inflicted upon other during CCW holders interventions count as a crime?

Do they happen often? Could that risk not be mitigated by training/minimum required proficiency?

At what point did these people give up their rights?

They don't give them up, they put their rights in opposition of someone elses, and the law already states which takes precedent in such a situation.

Well criminals, trained firearms officers and the lawful owners of guns we have atm..

Trained firearms officers are bugger all use in a short duration situation unless they just happen to be in the nearby mcdonalds.

Lawful owners of guns don't have the right to carry usable weapons for self defence at present.

So that leaves criminals...

 

[Tefal]

It is primarily self defence, beyond that they are limited. Apologies if I've been wandering a bit on that.

Outside of concealed carry with regards to hunting, home defence, sport shooting etc i agree there are other benefits to owning a gun.

It shows that the law works, but law enforcement sometimes fails. The solution to that does not involve changing the law to apply more random restrictions on the general populace.

Hardly random is it?

I think a majority of people would be concerned about other legally being able to carry firearms.

Especially as everyone knows how much people bend the rules when they are given access to potentially dangerous machinery.

Which happens very rarely, no good shooter would risk that situation.

CAn you be 100% certain all CCW permit holders will be of that mind set?

There wont be a significant portion of people who want to be the sheriff and when confronted with a situation where it is reasonable to draw a concealed weapon and possibly use it, will react a bit too cavalier or go the other way panic?

CCWs just add too much extra uncertainty, you never know if the guy having a really ****y day is going to maintain his good shooter mindset.

Do they happen often? Could that risk not be mitigated by training/minimum required proficiency?

I don't know that's why i asked if they counted as a crime then they could be dismissed as insignificant based on CCW holders firearms offences.

They don't give them up, they put their rights in opposition of someone elses, and the law already states which takes precedent in such a situation.

I meant everyone else on the street when the holder starts shooting.

Trained firearms officers are bugger all use in a short duration situation unless they just happen to be in the nearby mcdonalds.

they seem to perhaps a program to train and equip the regular police with weapons would be in order?

Lawful owners of guns don't have the right to carry usable weapons for self defence at present.

They can in their own homes.

So that leaves criminals...

I don't know about you but the idea of only criminals having weapons is somewhat less disturbing than criminals some people with something to prove and some reasonable citizens having weapons.

Like running across a dual carriageway is less disconcerting than running across a motorway.

Both dangerous but I'll take the one with 2 lanes of traffic.

 

[Dolph]

Outside of concealed carry with regards to hunting, home defence, sport shooting etc i agree there are other benefits to owning a gun.

Hardly random is it?

Yes, it was random, it had no evidential backing at all.

I think a majority of people would be concerned about other legally being able to carry firearms.

And that was part of the problem, evidence and reasonableness pushed aside in favour of an appeal to the majority driving by an appeal to emotion.

Especially as everyone knows how much people bend the rules when they are given access to potentially dangerous machinery.

The law already had enough clout to deal with those aspects though, the law didn't fail, the people enforcing it did, and the public, not the people involved, were punished for it.

CAn you be 100% certain all CCW permit holders will be of that mind set?

That's the reason to make it a permit not a universal right.

There wont be a significant portion of people who want to be the sheriff and when confronted with a situation where it is reasonable to draw a concealed weapon and possibly use it, will react a bit too cavalier or go the other way panic?

That is one reason to make it a permit, not a right.

I don't know that's why i asked if they counted as a crime then they could be dismissed as insignificant based on CCW holders firearms offences.

I can't find any real information on the matter either way, so there certainly hasn't been mass injuries due to the issue. There are a few heavily biased propaganda pieces from people like the brady group, but they are easily dismissed when looking at the actual data...

I meant everyone else on the street when the holder starts shooting.

What right is being breached if you aren't the one in the line of fire?

they seem to perhaps a program to train and equip the regular police with weapons would be in order?

How would that help? regular police are still a reactive force and a reactive action is still useless in a mugging/murder/rape prevention scenario.

They can in their own homes.

Rifles are horribly impractical for self defence, as are most long barrelled shotguns in the average home.

I don't know about you but the idea of only criminals having weapons is somewhat less disturbing than criminals some people with something to prove and some reasonable citizens having weapons.

I disagree, but then I imagine you know that

Like running across a dual carriageway is less disconcerting than running across a motorway.

Both dangerous but I'll take the one with 2 lanes of traffic.

Even if all the drivers on the dual carriageway were drunk and untrained, and the motorway drivers were sober, trained and observant?

 

[deuse]

RIP

I hope they get the little ***** that done it.

 

[stripey111]

Not many people would have got involved these days, so big respect to him.. RIP

Really dont know if I would give chase or not, more the fear of prosecution rather than physical danger.

 

[arc@css]

RIP fella.

 

[Redman]

... the obvious answer here is "What? Like Mr Singh?"

It's honestly not worth it. Have-a-go hero's are great when everything works out, but when it goes wrong, like in this case, it just makes it all the more tragic.

It's always worth it. Regardless of consequence, anything else is to surrender all that is meaningful to thugs and wannabe gangstas.

The one case you hear about in the media is not the be all and end all.

 

[Meridian]

Banning something that the vast majority use safely,

Remind me again of the US stats for suicides and murders with legally held firearms?


M

 

[Dolph]

Remind me again of the US stats for suicides and murders with legally held firearms?


M

Remind me again why that is not a red herring because the murder weapon or suicide technique used is irrelevant?

 

[timmothy]

Asian stabbed by blacks? As if anyone here cares.

its people like you that is whats wrong with this world. A hero trying to help is killed and the first thing that pops into your mind is about race.
Its really sad that people like you still exist and i hope you are in the minority.

 

[Chives]

daily fail

+1 .

RIP a true hero .

its people like you that is whats wrong with this world. A hero trying to help is killed and the first thing that pops into your mind is about race.
Its really sad that people like you still exist and i hope you are in the minority.

+1

 

[Gaygle]

It's always worth it. Regardless of consequence, anything else is to surrender all that is meaningful to thugs and wannabe gangstas.

I am going to name you platinum87 v2.0

 

[Chimerical]

Remind me again why that is not a red herring because the murder weapon or suicide technique used is irrelevant?

I wouldn't go that far. There are obvious advantages for owning a gun if you want to commit suicide and guns do make murder slightly easier than, say, a knife.

Obviously if someone is determined to do something then they'll do it anyway and I'm not against gun ownership but its pretty obvious that guns have advantages that other weapons don't.

its people like you that is whats wrong with this world. A hero trying to help is killed and the first thing that pops into your mind is about race.
Its really sad that people like you still exist and i hope you are in the minority.

And yet I seem to recall you personally typing a few racially tinged comments before so its ironic that you're accusing someone else of bringing up the subject.

 

[Chives]

guns do make murder
much easier than, say, a knife.

Fixed

 

[GreatAuk]

RIP, poor guy

...Although if he had caught them he'd have been arrested for assault

 

[Dolph]

I wouldn't go that far. There are obvious advantages for owning a gun if you want to commit suicide and guns do make murder slightly easier than, say, a knife.

Obviously if someone is determined to do something then they'll do it anyway and I'm not against gun ownership but its pretty obvious that guns have advantages that other weapons don't.

Arguing that 'gun deaths' is a meaningful statistic is a red herring. Deaths are what is important, because you're just as dead whether you are shot or stabbed.

Ironically the states with the worst murder rates in the USA usually have higher levels of gun control. Of course, correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, but that applies to the deaths and gun ownership point just as well...

 

[timmothy]

And yet I seem to recall you personally typing a few racially tinged comments before so its ironic that you're accusing someone else of bringing up the subject.

Not in a context like this, i am an extremely un-racist person.