How do you dispose of old coolant from loop?

[ubersonic]

However, it is still harmful to the environment

No, not when used as an ingredient in such small dilution it isn't (not according to regs/guidelines anyway), just like CocaCola, Tap Water and Shampoo aren't despite also containing ingredients that on their own in concentration will harm the environment (Phosphoric Acid, Fluoride and Formaldehyde respectively).

I showed the "sewer people" EXACTLY what the product was, pointed out the label detailing volume and ZnO percentage and even took them to the website.
They know exactly what it is and they still said no, for the reasons already given.

In that case you should report them for incompetence. If they really think that minute traces of a food additive isn't safe to go down the sewer then I'm interested to hear where they think it goes after human consumption XD

Here is a simple explanation from another source as you won't listen to reason from me:

• Waste of salts of titanium, chromium in the +3 oxidation state, manganese, copper and zinc is moderately toxic for the environment. Quantities in the order of magnitude of 100 mg per day may be flushed down the drain with a lot of water, but larger quantities must be brought to a waste processing facility.

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/rules.html

So again, it's perfectly fine to flush small amounts (or in this case miniscule amounts) down the drain, just don't be putting industrial amounts down there or you can be fined.

 

[ttaskmaster]

In that case you should report them for incompetence. If they really think that minute traces of a food additive isn't safe to go down the sewer then I'm interested to hear where they think it goes after human consumption XD

No you're not. You're not even reading, properly. You're still clinging to your 'safe for the sewer' argument.

But for the sake of it - It gets removed from foul sewers at the STWs:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965261400314X

However, many sewers still outfall into waterways, which is why you don't put this stuff down the drain.
As demonstrated by the above links that you likely won't read, even a 0.0001% solution presents significant effects, so your little 0.025% solution (inaccurate as it's merely quoted as less than 0.1%) is what, 250 times that impact?

And yet you still that's report-worthy incompetence.... You think this, YOU report them, then. But to whom...?

Company standards say it's not permitted.
Legal department says it's not permitted.
The industry regulations say it's not permitted.
The industry regulator says it's not permitted.
The EC says it's not permitted.
Scientists say it's not permitted.
Mayhems says it's not permitted.
Half the posters here on OCUK say it's not permitted.

We're running out of authorities to report them to - There's only... well, you!!
Guess it's up to you to save us from those you think you know better than... Good luck with that.

 

[ubersonic]

even a 0.0001% solution presents significant effects

Mate your urine will have a higher content than that after eating/drinking food containing Zinc Oxide, are you saying urine isn't safe to flush and need to be taken to the tip too?

so your little 0.025% solution

It's going to be a lot less than that in reality, 0.025% is the theoretical maximum. What I mean is the 4x concentrate and the premix both say "less than 0.1%" because thats what they have to put on something even with trace amounts, hence the premix being 1/4 strength of the "less than 0.1% concentrate so actually being 0.025% maximum (and almost certainly significantly less).

But even if we go with the generously high 0.025% that's still safe to pour down the drain according to most lab guides/etc (and the fact that, you know, it's a damned food coloring).

Company standards say it's not permitted.
Legal department says it's not permitted.
The industry regulations say it's not permitted.
The industry regulator says it's not permitted.
The EC says it's not permitted.
Scientists say it's not permitted.

You keep repeating this nonsense but like I have said before, we are not talking about barrels of the stuff, we are talking about a permissible trace amount used as a colouring in a water based liquid.

*EDIT*

You know what, nevermind, lets just agree to disagree, you carry on taking stuff to the tip that's fine to pour down the drain. I'll carry on pouring it down the drain and not breaking any rules/laws. Have fun.

 

[Mynight]

The point is that it's NOT permissible.
And yes, if the water companies catch you doing it, they WILL fine you... and yes, if it causes problems further down the line, we can trace it, as it's one of the very services my teams provide. A number of water companies recently got fined tens of millions for pollution incidents. They take this very seriously and if they catch customers doing it, they WILL fine them for it.

Pure interest (not even sure if you can answer) but how would they be able to trace it back to source? Is it not all mixed into one once it reaches the main line in the street?

 

[ttaskmaster]

Mate your urine will have a higher content than that after eating/drinking food containing Zinc Oxide, are you saying urine isn't safe to flush and need to be taken to the tip too?

Zinc, sure. Not zinc oxide.
But then, you don't seem interested in what scientists have to say about such things, as they're all just scaremongerers, right?

You keep repeating this nonsense but like I have said before, we are not talking about barrels of the stuff, we are talking about a permissible trace amount used as a colouring in a water based liquid.

Yes, yes, "barrels and barrels and barrels".... like there's not already enough in sunscreen to cause problems at just 4%... oh, wait, there is and it does.
You seem to forget the fundamental fact that the more people like you chucking this **** down the drain, the bigger the problem. This stuff doesn't dissolve and fade out of existence, or anything. It builds up and kills off the aquatic organisms we rather need to carry on living.

But even if we go with the generously high 0.025% that's still safe to pour down the drain according to most lab guides/etc (and the fact that, you know, it's a damned food coloring).

OK, let's look at a lab guide, shall we?
Your 0.025% is 250mg/l.
Fischer's lab guide says just 0.098mg/l is the lower limit for toxicity to daphnia and other aquatic invertebrates . Just over 1.1mg/l and you can add rainbow trout to that. In fact, so does every other lab subject to EC regulation, strangely enough.
Safe for humans does not mean safe for everything. This is why even your lab guides all specify, "Should not be released into environment. Prevent from reaching drains, sewer, or waterway".

Pure interest (not even sure if you can answer) but how would they be able to trace it back to source? Is it not all mixed into one once it reaches the main line in the street?

Same ways we test for excess fat, engine oils, greases and all the other substances - Reverse dye testing, primarily, often combined with chemical sampling and other methods.
Not really a secret, as people can watch us doing it and it's used as evidence in any legal actions the water companies take.
A lot of things leave traces inside the pipes, especially concrete ones. It's not unknown to take out a slice of the pipe for detailed analysis, but this can be traced right to source.

It's not cheap, but if third party actions have resulted in a reportable pollution incident or something like a collapse, you can bet they'll spend that kind of money to trace the source and (potentially) recharge the costs. It tends to be businesses they hit, as domestic customers aren't good targets for millions of Pounds in 3rd party compensation claims... but since pollutions now cost water companies tens of millions in fines, there will soon be an increase in tracing of responsible parties.

 

[stuie]

as its so dangerous could it be used as weed killer?

 

[ttaskmaster]

as its so dangerous could it be used as weed killer?

Not quite. You'd have to extract the zinc oxide, and then mix it with sulphuric acid to make zinc sulphate, which can then be used as weedkiller.

I'll carry on pouring it down the drain and not breaking any rules/laws. Have fun.

Since I'm on that website, today...

Water Resources Act 1991 - Part III, CHAPTER II, Principal offences, Section 85:
A person contravenes this section if he causes or knowingly permits any poisonous, noxious or polluting matter [of which you already know zinc oxide is one] or any solid waste matter to enter any controlled waters [which are defined in Section 104, but basically covers any river, lake, pond, watercourse, reservoir, inland freshwater, coastal water, groundwater, underground river and essentially anything not a sewer].

Subject to the following provisions of this Chapter, a person who contravenes this section or the conditions of any consent given under this Chapter for the purposes of this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding £20,000 or to both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine or to both.

So yes, it is illegal, in any quantity.
Thanks for playing.

 

[ubersonic]

Not quite. You'd have to extract the zinc oxide, and then mix it with sulphuric acid to make zinc sulphate, which can then be used as weedkiller.

He would need to have many gallons of used coolant to get enough zinc to do that though, so while it is theoretically possible it's hardly practically possible.

Since I'm on that website, today...

Water Resources Act 1991 - Part III, CHAPTER II, Principal offences, Section 85:
A person contravenes this section if he causes or knowingly permits any poisonous, noxious or polluting matter [of which you already know zinc oxide is one] or any solid waste matter to enter any controlled waters [which are defined in Section 104, but basically covers any river, lake, pond, watercourse, reservoir, inland freshwater, coastal water, groundwater, underground river and essentially anything not a sewer].

Subject to the following provisions of this Chapter, a person who contravenes this section or the conditions of any consent given under this Chapter for the purposes of this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding £20,000 or to both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine or to both.

So yes, it is illegal, in any quantity.
Thanks for playing.

Lol, you should really have proofread your post XD

 

[ttaskmaster]

He would need to have many gallons of used coolant to get enough zinc to do that though, so while it is theoretically possible it's hardly practically possible.

Practicality wasn'ty the question.

Lol, you should really have proofread your post XD

Do tell....

 

[ubersonic]

Do tell....

The bit where you say your quote applies to "essentially anything not a sewer", now last I checked sewers did not fall into that category.

Oh and again ofc the fact none of it applies anyway because as previously mentioned we're talking about a permissible amount, just like the permissible amount in tap water which can also be put down the drain.

 

[stuie]

Ok fair enough other than the colouring then theres nothing to stop me throwing it away in my weed patch then?

 

[ttaskmaster]

The bit where you say your quote applies to "essentially anything not a sewer", now last I checked sewers did not fall into that category.

And where do you think sewers and drains outfall to, genius? The aforementioned controlled waters... which is why (as previously stated) this stuff is NOT to be tipped down the drain. From the point of outfall into any watercourse, you are legally deemed to be the cause of that matter entering the controlled waters, unless you have a trade effluent discharge consent.

Oh and again ofc the fact none of it applies anyway because as previously mentioned we're talking about a permissible amount, just like the permissible amount in tap water which can also be put down the drain.

The permissible amount, as already specified in your lab guides is 0.098mg/l.
This coolant contains 250mg/l, by your reckoning.
That is over 2,500 times anything that might be deemed a "permissible amount".
Moreover, the law doesn't specify any quantities. It just says "any". So yes, it really does apply.

Ok fair enough other than the colouring then theres nothing to stop me throwing it away in my weed patch then?

Long as it doesn't leech into any of them thar controlled waters, I can't see anything wrong with that.

 

[ubersonic]

Moreover, the law doesn't specify any quantities. It just says "any". So yes, it really does apply.

The "any" only applies to specific concentration though not trace amounts, I.E in order for it to be classed as polluting the concentration much be of a certain level. Hence why tap water which contains Fluoride, Cola made with Phosphoric Acid, shampoo made with Formaldehyde and many liquids made with Zinc Oxide can all safely/legally go down the drain despite some of their individual ingredients being toxic/etc in higher concentrations.

 

[LePhuronn]

This has stopped being entertaining now...if you bash your head against this any more @ttaskmaster you're gonna give yourself an aneurysm.

 

[ttaskmaster]

The "any" only applies to specific concentration though not trace amounts, I.E in order for it to be classed as polluting the concentration much be of a certain level.

Oh, really?
So what is this specific concentration, then? Where is it cited?

If that were in any way true, the law would detail that specific concentration, which it does not.
But again, EC regulations already have that pollutant concentration covered and the amount you're talking about is FAR in excess of the legal limit they specify, too, by several thousand times. This is why the coolant has to specify the content and tell you not to put it down the drain.

Hence why tap water which contains Fluoride, Cola made with Phosphoric Acid, shampoo made with Formaldehyde and many liquids made with Zinc Oxide can all safely/legally go down the drain despite some of their individual ingredients being toxic/etc in higher concentrations.

Actually that is more to do with a) how easily they can be removed during transit and b) how easily such things can be kept separate from the drains, or in the case of the above how hard.
In the case of certain substances, it would not be reasonable to expect a customer to keep it out of the sewer, such as trace elements (actual trace elements, not just what you think is a small amount) of something naturally ocurring in bodily fluids, for example. But where it can easily be kept out, such as prohibiting the disposal of standalone fluids or things like concrete, the customer is quite reasonably expected to do so.

This has stopped being entertaining now...if you bash your head against this any more @ttaskmaster you're gonna give yourself an aneurysm.

Actually, this is more like a refreshing break from the boring CDM and structural condition classification regulations I'm usually dealing with.

 

[ubersonic]

Oh, really?

Yup, if it applied to all polluting/toxic/etc stuff of any concentration then that would mean nothing could ever be flushed down the drain including toilet water. Hence why trace amounts of stuff are okay, IIRC the limit for Zinc in tap water is 5 mg/l, according to you that makes it illegal to flush an empty toilet (assuming the water has the maximum permissible concentration in it, that's not practically likely).

 

[ttaskmaster]

Yup, if it applied to all polluting/toxic/etc stuff of any concentration then that would mean nothing could ever be flushed down the drain including toilet water.

Technically it does, which is why it specifically does not mention concentrations of substances.
In practical terms, various limits and limitations on preventative measures will be applied, including for reasons of cumulative effect... but there are still those limits and this coolant is WAY in excess of its limit.

Hence why trace amounts of stuff are okay

Your understanding of "trace element" seems somewhat skewed, though, by factors of several thousandfold, as well as a lack of appreciation for how small a concentration of a particular substance constitutes an actual pollutant risk.

IIRC the limit for Zinc in tap water is 5 mg/l, according to you that makes it illegal to flush an empty toilet (assuming the water has the maximum permissible concentration in it, that's not practically likely).

The guideline back in 1984 was 5mg/l. The WHO continues to maintain this as a guide, but standards and acceptable levels vary from 1mg in Japan right up to 5 in the US and Canada. Most countries set the acceptable limit based on what customers find most palatable... and yet, the Trade Effluent limit on zinc is only 3mg/l concentration here, but can be up to 10mg/l in other areas, because zinc content varies between areas.

But then, zinc is not the same as zinc oxide...