Hungarian Grand Prix 2012, Budapest - Race 11/20

Red Bull boss Christian Horner denies team has made illegal parc ferme changes

Red Bull boss Christian Horner insists his team never made illegal changes to its car in parc ferme, despite a fresh controversy erupting over a ride-height adjuster at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Fresh from the reigning champions being involved in a row over engine maps in Germany last week, it emerged in Hungary that back at the Canadian GP the team was asked by the FIA to change a mechanism that gave it the possibility to alter front suspension settings manually.

Teams are supposed to only use tools to make such adjustments, and the FIA was not happy with the ease by which Red Bull could change its suspension - and therefore alter the ride height. It was asked to modify the system so that tools needed to be used.

The regulations state that teams cannot change suspension settings between qualifying and the race - and in order to ensure compliance tools must be used to make such alternations.

Article 34.5 of the Sporting Regulations states: "In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in post qualifying parc ferme, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools."

The benefit of having an easily adjusted suspension setting would be in allowing changes to be made to the car before the race without raising the suspicion of scrutineers - but Horner is adamant that his outfit never exploited that possibility.

"It was something that could either be changed by hand or by tool, but the FIA said they preferred it was a tool that was used," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"We never changed the ride height in parc ferme or anything like that. It really is a non-issue."

When asked why, if the regulations state that tools must be used, the team had a system that allowed settings to be changed manually, Horner said: "There are a lot of parts that are changed manually on the car, but a tool is used. The suspension has never been changed in parc ferme. Never.

"Basically what was on the car on Canada has been on the car at other races as well, but at no point has it been adjusted in parc ferme. It is question of whether you do it with a tool or manually, and it is done with a tool."

The right-height issue is the latest in a string of technical controversies that Red Bull has been involved in this season – with it having to change its floor after Monaco because of holes, refine its wheel hub design in Canada and revise its engine map settings after Germany.

Horner says that the string of issues is simply the end result of his outfit producing another quick car.

"I think it is the consequence of being competitive," he said. "When others are complaining the reason the car is quick, and that is the case here."
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So Horner basically admits it broke the rules, yet they get away with it.
 
Such a load of horse ****, the rules state "cannot be made without the use of tools" not should not, so whether they did or did not adjust is irrelevant, they broke the rules.

Secondly, if you apparently only ever use tools anyway, why waste money developing a method that works without tools in the first place?

They've clearly been up to something and it's remarkable they don't get at least a token fine for such a cut and dry rule violation.
 
Mr Men said:
The report is they are changing ride height, which is against the rules as already posted.
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But have the FIA categorically stated that what RBR have done is wrong and are they going to issue a punishment? If no punishment is going to be dished out - why not?

I ask this because in years gone by, there have been many F1 fans who called the RBR car illegal (just as you are suggesting that RBR have broken the rules on suspension/dampers). Remember the flexi wings? Yet, for whatever reason, the FIA, always cleared the RBR cars, for racing. I think there are A LOT of sour grapes and the only people/organisation whose opinion counts is the FIA's. The opinions of F1 fans counts for nothing (sad, but true). If the FIA say that a 6 wheeled F1 car is legal....then its legal.

If the FIA say that the RBR car was worked on, in parc ferme...but this is legal...then its legal.
 
Merlin5 said:
Don't worry. Chances are, if you'd put money on he wouldn't have polled. At least, that's the way I look at gambling. It always goes wrong once money is put down. :p
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Hehehe. Yep.

The McLaren car appears to be the fastest in Hungary, so they have a good chance of getting a 1-2 tomorrow. Expect Button's race pace to be closer to Hamilton (Hamilton is always quicker in qualifying).

I think tomorrow, McLaren fans are going to be very happy. ;)
 
sunama said:
But have the FIA categorically stated that what RBR have done is wrong and are they going to issue a punishment? If no punishment is going to be dished out - why not?

I ask this because in years gone by, there have been many F1 fans who called the RBR car illegal (just as you are suggesting that RBR have broken the rules on suspension/dampers). Remember the flexi wings? Yet, for whatever reason, the FIA, always cleared the RBR cars, for racing. I think there are A LOT of sour grapes and the only people/organisation whose opinion counts is the FIA's. The opinions of F1 fans counts for nothing (sad, but true). If the FIA say that a 6 wheeled F1 car is legal....then its legal.

If the FIA say that the RBR car was worked on, in parc ferme...but this is legal...then its legal.
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You should read above, rules say suspension should only be adjustable with the use of tools, Horner admits it can be done without tools, therefore rule has been broken.

FIA said engine map was illegal in Germany, no penalty. Suspension can be manually adjusted, no penalty.

Something smells bad.
 
"In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in post qualifying parc ferme, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools."

"It was something that could either be changed by hand or by tool, but the FIA said they preferred it was a tool that was used," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

Rules say 'CANNOT', Horner says it could be.

That's cut and dry, black and white, no argument, violation of the rule. There are no loopholes, no bending, no differing interpretations.

If the FIA don't dish out at least a token punishment, that really is the punctuation mark on the statement outlining their complete lack of either competence or integrity.
 
dannyjo22 said:
It was there at the last race but they didn't get the qualifying to show it. Again it shows what a great job alonso did in a car that's not the fastest by any means in normal dry circumstances.
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Indeed.

IMO the RBR and McLaren are the fastest cars on the track, with Ferrari in 3rd place. The RBR drivers would be leading the WDC had it not been for Alonso.

McLaren have been a little unlucky so far and also their drivers have not been as good as the RBR drivers this season, thus far. I think Vettel has driven better than Hamilton and Webber has driven better than Button.

Had Alonso or Vettel been in a McLaren, I think they would've won the first 3 races of the year and been leading the WDC by a considerable margin.
 
sunama said:
But have the FIA categorically stated that what RBR have done is wrong and are they going to issue a punishment? If no punishment is going to be dished out - why not?

.
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They have done wrong, it doesn't matter if they used the device or not. As flibster said BAR got stung for having a device that could allow them to cheat even though it was proved they couldn't have cheated.

It doesn't matter if they have used it in parc femme or not, the ability shouldn't be there are it breaks the rules. This isn't the same as the flexi wing, that was cleared and within the flex rules, it was legal.

This device is not. It's nothing to do with sour grapes.
 
Kenai said:
Rules say 'CANNOT', Horner says it could be.

That's cut and dry, black and white, no argument, violation of the rule. There are no loopholes, no bending, no differing interpretations.
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I see what you are saying.

It would appear that the FIA merely asked RBR to prevent tool-less adjustment, to close the matter. Clearly, the FIA felt that this was a very minor issue - no big deal. Not even worthy of a £10k fine.

And this is where I think other teams are letting themselves down. There is clearly room for manoeuvre when it comes to manipulating the rules and other teams need to start doing this. They need to create cars which are borderline illegal, so that they gain a few tenths per lap on their competitors.

This is what I like about RBR, their engineers/designers push the rules/car design to the limit. And their drivers push the cars to the limit (to breaking point). Over the last 4 years RBR have scored more points than any other team, which shows that this plan of action, does work. Last year, Ferrari essentially said that they would be doing the same for 2012, where they would build a car which was more "risky".
 
Qually results

Code: 
Pos  Driver                Team                 Time          Gap   
 1.  Lewis Hamilton        McLaren-Mercedes     1m20.953s        
 2.  Romain Grosjean       Lotus-Renault        1m21.366s + 0.413
 3.  Sebastian Vettel      Red Bull-Renault     1m21.416s + 0.463
 4.  Jenson Button         McLaren-Mercedes     1m21.583s + 0.630
 5.  Kimi Raikkonen        Lotus-Renault        1m21.730s + 0.777
 6.  Fernando Alonso       Ferrari              1m21.844s + 0.891
 7.  Felipe Massa          Ferrari              1m21.900s + 0.947
 8.  Pastor Maldonado      Williams-Renault     1m21.939s + 0.986
 9.  Bruno Senna           Williams-Renault     1m22.343s + 1.390
10.  Nico Hulkenberg       Force India-Mercedes 1m22.847s + 1.894
Q2 cut-off time: 1m21.697s                                 Gap *
11.  Mark Webber           Red Bull-Renault     1m21.715s  + 0.655
12.  Paul di Resta         Force India-Mercedes 1m21.813s  + 0.753
13.  Nico Rosberg          Mercedes             1m21.895s  + 0.835
14.  Sergio Perez          Sauber-Ferrari       1m21.895s  + 0.835
15.  Kamui Kobayashi       Sauber-Ferrari       1m22.300s  + 1.240
16.  Jean-Eric Vergne      Toro Rosso-Ferrari   1m22.380s  + 1.320
17.  Michael Schumacher    Mercedes             1m22.723s  + 1.663
Q1 cut-off time: 1m22.948s                                 Gap *
18.  Daniel Ricciardo      Toro Rosso-Ferrari   1m23.250s  + 1.456
19.  Heikki Kovalainen     Caterham-Renault     1m23.576s  + 1.782
20.  Vitaly Petrov         Caterham-Renault     1m24.167s  + 2.373
21.  Charles Pic           Marussia-Cosworth    1m25.244s  + 3.450
22.  Timo Glock            Marussia-Cosworth    1m25.476s  + 3.682
23.  Pedro de la Rosa      HRT-Cosworth         1m25.916s  + 4.122
24.  Narain Karthikeyan    HRT-Cosworth         1m26.178s  + 4.384
 
sunama said:
And this is where I think other teams are letting themselves down. There is clearly room for manoeuvre when it comes to manipulating the rules and other teams need to start doing this. They need to create cars which are borderline illegal, so that they gain a few tenths per lap on their competitors.

.
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For starters it's not making a device that's borderline legal or interpretation of the rules. It's illegal. Secondly just because a car isn't the fastest doesn't mean they aren't already doing lots of borderline stuff. You could argue red bull are a bit stupid for getting caught. You or I have no idea whether mclaren Ferrari or red bull have the most borderline rule interpretation.

It's not like red bull came up with the double decker diffuser or the f duct.

What I would ask about this suspension device is how long it's been fitted. It would explain how they could run so low with low fuel levels and then not destroy the front wing on heavy loads. They could have been out right cheating for a while??
 
if it is a similar day tomorrow like it was today this has to be hamiltons race with ease.


which means something will go wrong.


a lights to flag win will be great tomorrow.
 
sunama said:
It would appear that the FIA merely asked RBR to prevent tool-less adjustment, to close the matter. Clearly, the FIA felt that this was a very minor issue - no big deal. Not even worthy of a £10k fine.
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What's annoying about it this issue is that on the face of it, it may seem a minor issue but ultimately why would they bother to deliberately design the car outside the rules in such a fashion if there was no intention to use it.

I'm sure you know deep down, just as I do that they will have used this in an illegal fashion during this season but it can't be proved. Clever on Red Bulls part in one sense but this sort of thing goes beyond 'bending the rules' to just flat out breaking them in the knowledge no one could prove you did it, which goes beyond any notion of decent sportsmanship.

Maybe i'm just being slightly naive in expecting any level of sportsmanship within today's commercially orientated 'sporting' world though.

Pushing the rules to the line - great. Flat out breaking them just because you know no one can prove you've actually used it - that's just cheating IMO.
 
sunama said:
I see what you are saying.

It would appear that the FIA merely asked RBR to prevent tool-less adjustment, to close the matter. Clearly, the FIA felt that this was a very minor issue - no big deal. Not even worthy of a £10k fine.

And this is where I think other teams are letting themselves down. There is clearly room for manoeuvre when it comes to manipulating the rules and other teams need to start doing this. They need to create cars which are borderline illegal, so that they gain a few tenths per lap on their competitors.

This is what I like about RBR, their engineers/designers push the rules/car design to the limit. And their drivers push the cars to the limit (to breaking point). Over the last 4 years RBR have scored more points than any other team, which shows that this plan of action, does work. Last year, Ferrari essentially said that they would be doing the same for 2012, where they would build a car which was more "risky".
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What? they broke the rule and just get told oh it's ok we believe you never actually done it, naughty boys carry on. That is not manipulating the rules that is breaking them clearly and being given no punishment. So what's the points in having any rules?

What if Ferrari run extra revs to gain a tenth or so, will you say well done Ferrari taking the rules and making them borderline illegal.....
 
I hear next race McLaren will be adding nitrous oxide but Martin Whitmarsh is to give the FIA his assurances that it won't actually get used, so McLaren should see no punishment for such 'rule bending'.
 
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