Hungarian Grand Prix 2013, Budapest - Race 10/19

Have you watched f1?
By asking they can tell the driver to hand the place back on track and thus it makes a big difference to the outcome of the move. This has been the case for done years.

Many many times, teams have asked for opinion, and told the driver to let them past ASAP.
 
Havana_UK said:
6. The driver who is in front is the one entitled to keep the racing line (IMO this was Grosjean), therefore Massa should have backed off, not forcing Grosjean wide.
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Totally agree with you, except point 6 :)

You are not entitled to keep the racing line if it pushes a driver wide if they are alongside you, if they are there and you know they are there you should leave them room. As Alonso did at Monza for Vettel and Vettel didn't for Alonso so he got a penalty. I'm sure the rules on that changed?

I prefer to be of the view a car width should be left if a car has a wheel past the rears of the car in front, regardless of the driver. The driver on the outside shouldn't have to drive off the track to avoid an accident. I wish someone would just stand their ground.

Anyway, quite a good old piece on drivers overtaking off circuit...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/04/04/f1-rules-off-track-overtaking/
 
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Glaucus said:
Many many times, teams have asked for opinion, and told the driver to let them past ASAP.
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But in the case we are discussing, it took the stewards a couple of laps to make a decision based on all the telemetry they had before giving the penalty.

What you are proposing is that they are forced to make a snap decision within 20 seconds, otherwise there is no guarantee the drivers will be in a position to change places.

There is no way the stewards can make a fully informed decision of the exact incident within that amount of time.
 
Havana_UK said:
Grosjean was already ahead of Massa at the time he left the track (Massa's front wing was behind Grosjean's front wheel)
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The move wasn't complete at that point. Grosjean was only able to get past because he chose to take a line and speed that took him off the track.

I think it was harsh and, honestly, I'd rather it wasn't given but I don't think it particularly stands out as an unreasonable penalty by F1 standards or isn't clearly within the rules.
 
Unfortunately this isn't old f1 basically no tech, far stricter rules etc. you can't realy compare older era overtakes to modern f1.


El_Watcher said:
But in the case we are discussing, it took the stewards a couple of laps to make a decision based on all the telemetry they had before giving the penalty.

What you are proposing is that they are forced to make a snap decision within 20 seconds, otherwise there is no guarantee the drivers will be in a position to change places.

There is no way the stewards can make a fully informed decision of the exact incident within that amount of time.
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They don't, and never have. It's an advisory usually from Charlie usually. It is not a snap 100% descion. You are making out like this has never happened before. It happens regularly. And the stewards have gone against the opinion before.


Mr Jack said:
The move wasn't complete at that point. Grosjean was only able to get past because he chose to take a line and speed that took him off the track.

I think it was harsh and, honestly, I'd rather it wasn't given but I don't think it particularly stands out as an unreasonable penalty by F1 standards or isn't clearly within the rules.
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This, it's a shame as t was a great overtake, but as even massa siad there hands are tied, he overtook with all 4 wheels outside the track.
 
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Quite a bit of talk about this rim design on the rear tyres of the Merc since last race -

1375303787.jpg


No wonder they didn't go through 10 sets during the race as expected.
 
That's interesting, so they must have thought the tyres giving up was a weakness in the rim maybe caused from running out of limits camber?

Just a guess.
 
Yeah it is definitely cooling related. Hopefully Scabs is doing a Newey and visualising what it does and making sense of it :p
 
Duke said:
Quite a bit of talk about this rim design on the rear tyres of the Merc since last race -

1375303787.jpg


No wonder they didn't go through 10 sets during the race as expected.
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Wasn't that from Friday testing?
And it's only the rear tires that have a slot.
 
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It's certainly not from the race, given the lack of helmets.

Aren't Pirelli tyres marked on both sides too? If so, it must be a development tyre (which are generally unmarked). I wasn't aware teams were offered development tyres were used in Hungary.

Further, it appears as though that's in a pits where the pits are to the left of the car (as they would be Montreal, but not Hungary). Can't be certain, but you'd expect the cameraman and the assembled media to be on the other side of the car and the guy with the extinguisher too if that was at the Hungaroring.

Unless it was just pitstop practice between sessions of course, in which all of the above can be rendered meaningless.
 
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dannyjo22 said:
Totally agree with you, except point 6 :)

You are not entitled to keep the racing line if it pushes a driver wide if they are alongside you, if they are there and you know they are there you should leave them room. As Alonso did at Monza for Vettel and Vettel didn't for Alonso so he got a penalty. I'm sure the rules on that changed?

I prefer to be of the view a car width should be left if a car has a wheel past the rears of the car in front, regardless of the driver. The driver on the outside shouldn't have to drive off the track to avoid an accident. I wish someone would just stand their ground.

Anyway, quite a good old piece on drivers overtaking off circuit...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2011/04/04/f1-rules-off-track-overtaking/
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Actually thinking about it you maybe right. Certainly if a driver is defending a position they are allowed to make one move to defend against the overtake and are then allowed to move back on to the racing line, provided they leave at least a car's width if the overtaking driver is alongside.

Either way, I still believe that Grosjean had this move completed and THEN left the track to avoid Massa. Watch this clip at 0.25x speed and you can clearly see that Grosjean has to straighten up as Massa comes across the track to avoid him, and he's already got his nose well in front by this point.


Mr Jack said:
The move wasn't complete at that point. Grosjean was only able to get past because he chose to take a line and speed that took him off the track.

I think it was harsh and, honestly, I'd rather it wasn't given but I don't think it particularly stands out as an unreasonable penalty by F1 standards or isn't clearly within the rules.
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See above clip, I think the move WAS complete (granted he's not got all the way past him, but he's in front).
 
this_is_gav said:
Further, it appears as though that's in a pits where the pits are to the left of the car (as they would be Montreal, but not Hungary). Can't be certain, but you'd expect the cameraman and the assembled media to be on the other side of the car and the guy with the extinguisher too if that was at the Hungaroring.
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the picture has been flipped :)
 
Havana_UK said:
See above clip, I think the move WAS complete (granted he's not got all the way past him, but he's in front).
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I think the clip clearly shows Grosjean hadn't completed the move. Which means there really is little point arguing at this point.
 
El_Watcher said:
But in the case we are discussing, it took the stewards a couple of laps to make a decision based on all the telemetry they had before giving the penalty.

What you are proposing is that they are forced to make a snap decision within 20 seconds, otherwise there is no guarantee the drivers will be in a position to change places.

There is no way the stewards can make a fully informed decision of the exact incident within that amount of time.
Click to expand...

Didn't the incident also intersect with a pit stop? There's been a number of cases where a driver has received a DTP for not returning the place because the guy he passed went into the pits before he could.
 
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