Hungarian Grand Prix 2014, Hungaroring Race - 11/19

[drunkenmaster]

Can I just ask one question - when Sebastian Vettel was told to hold station behind Webber (Multi 21) he didn't ... and people on here were frothing at the mouth in rage as to how he had the audacity to defy team orders ... fast forward a season or so, Lewis Hamilton defies team orders and we are all celebrating it.

How so?

Did you misread what you wrote then misunderstand it? Vettel was told to HOLD STATION and DIDN'T. Mark wasn't told to give him the place, they are very different things. Mark could have gone faster, but both drivers were told to save the engine. Vettel hadn't been able to pass Mark before turning down the engine. Vettel effectively cheated.

Rosberg was NOT fast enough to pass him, in fact he got no where really close. Only in the DRS zone a couple times and never looked remotely close to actually passing him. Hamilton said as much as he wouldn't fight him when he catches him. It's an entirely different situation.

The real question is which dingbat watching the numbers couldn't foresee the situation in which stopping again would leave him ultra fast at the end and fully capable of catching up. In reality Merc most likely genuinely believed with Rosberg pitting he had no chance of catching Hamilton, but had Rosberg been able to pass and put in a few extra seconds then pitted, he might have caught and passed him at the end.

If the team knew Rosberg could catch him by the end and asked Hamilton to move over, they are simply completely in the wrong and stupid about it. yes winning the constructors by 200 points instead of 220 is "better" but won't matter in the slightest.

Rosberg lost out to Hamilton because after the safety car he was unable to save his tires. If he pitted when Hamilton did, either on a two stop or one stop strategy, he'd have come out ahead of Hamilton and if it was two sets of softs vs one set of mediums still, he would have gotten quite a distance ahead of Hamilton before pitting for the second time and had a much smaller gap to close.

This isn't the first time Rosberg's tires have dropped off badly while Hamilton has been able to go multiple laps further at a very competitive pace before needing to pit. It happens consistently, Hamilton is better on tires, fuel and race pace which allowed him to pass Rosberg. The SC hurt Rosberg for sure, but again had he kept his tires going he'd have finished likely at worst 2nd, maybe first and 2-3 places clear of Hamilton. It was his early pit stop, getting caught behind traffic(which he'd have cleared like Hamilton did if he went longer into the race) and lower pace at the end of that next stint(when he couldn't get by Hamilton) that cost him losing out to Hamilton. Losing 1st, or at least making 1st very hard to get was down to the safety car, but his inability to beat Hamilton(again) was entirely down to him.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Oh my you really do think there is a conspiracy I thought you were just messing around

I think after what I saw in the race today, I am seriously buying into the idea. Not necessarily a conspiracy, but favouritism seems to exist in the team.

 

[Jono8]

Because Webber obeyed team orders when he was asked to do it for Vettel, when Vettel was asked to do it he gave the middle to his team and team mate.

Also i believe Webber turned his engine down so he had no chance of holding Vettel off, Vettel didn't turn his engine down i believe and over took him.

This, the multi 21 situation was totally different situations.

Anyway, great race! If Hamilton let Rosberg through, Rosberg would have won and Lewis would have probably finished 4th. I know it is Mercedes' best interests to have one of their cars win but they were stupid to think Lewis would let Rosberg go, especially as Rosberg could barely even catch him as it was!

The defining moment in that race was Rosberg not being able to get around JEV and Hamilton pulling off a wonder move to make the pass.....

 

[Mr Jack]

Rosberg lost out to Hamilton because after the safety car he was unable to save his tires.

His inability to pass the car in front, even with DRS advantage was what really crippled him, I would say.

Without the SC he would have won and it did badly disadvantage him but, IMO, with such a strong car advantage he really should have won the race from there. Even with the mess he made he wasn't far off charging through at the end.

 

[JBeck]

I have lost massive respect for Mercedes after today. My problem with the Mercedes radio message to Hamilton, telling him to let Rosberg through [because he's on a different strategy] is that the team knew these drivers were racing for finishing position, regardless of the fact that Rosberg had another pitstop to come. So they were, in effect, attempting to directly influence the race result in favour of Rosberg, rather than let those drivers race. It is becoming more and more obvious that Mercedes want their German driver to win the championship.

I completely agree with you, however after voicing the same opinion that they will favour Rosberg, I have been shot down more than once for doing so here. So yes, it's clear to me they favour him and I struggle to see why others don't see the same but in fairness everyone looks at the same situation from a different angle, I suppose.

 

[Slam62]

Rosberg is average at the end of the day.

We are struggling to get a fair fight, I am struggling to trust the predominantly German managed team.

 

[Twirlywoos]

Just watched it on BBC IPlayer. Even though their coverage sucked - what a race(!)

Great Job by Lewis and I thought why the hell are they giving him team orders when he was clearly racing and had a good gap infront of Nico. Lewis was right to disobey, unless Nico was a second behind.

Clearly bad luck on McClaren's part for putting the drivers on inters again after the safety car. I'd get their weather forecast looked at.

Maldonado, well what can I say apart from loldonado?

How the hell did Vettel manage to control that spin?

Well deserved win for Ricky and nice to see Alonso on the podium.

Overall nice to see Mercs off the pace in variable weather conditions and there was a smug little smile on the Lewis's face on the podium

 

[UTmaniac]

What really cost Rosberg a better final position by fair means was that period where his rear brakes were smoking and he had to shift the brake bias forward (losing brake efficiency in the process). At one point a retirement looked on the cards, but then the situation resolved itself (during the second pace car period?) and he threatened for a podium spot.

Best finish I can recall to a grand prix for some time!
Alonso was working miracles to keep his Ferrari going on options from ~lap40 until the finish;
Hamilton doing well to keep Rosberg behind him after he pushed hard in the early laps of his prime tyres from ~lap45;
Ricciardo coming through to win on softs despite only leaving himself 15 laps to get through on a tight track;
Rosberg catching the leading trio at ~4 seconds per lap over the last 10 laps or so, but failing to be brave enough to pass Hamilton, (or more likely not wanting to risk a pass and just forfeit a few points of his championship lead).

 

[drunkenmaster]

His inability to pass the car in front, even with DRS advantage was what really crippled him, I would say.

Without the SC he would have won and it did badly disadvantage him but, IMO, with such a strong car advantage he really should have won the race from there. Even with the mess he made he wasn't far off charging through at the end.

Yes, but Hamilton failed to pass Vettel already. Merc have many times this year shown an issue, as Red Bull did last year, with top speed. I think the main thing is their DRS offers a very small improvement in top speed. Vergne didn't have DRS, Rosberg did, it wasn't enough. The TR's have shown some decent speed down straights and difficulty being passed previously and most likely on a track like this Merc/RBR can bolt on downforce, more than cars like TR can achieve, but that does help them in fights down the straight. Same way Hamilton has had trouble passing Williams, he closed on Bottas easily but down the DRS straights he was losing time vs Bottas rather than passing easily. Most of Rosberg/Hamilton getting by Bottas/Massa has been through pit stops rather than on track.

The thing is, Vergne's tires fell off completely, that is why Hamilton got by him, not because he was vastly superior. But Rosberg had started to fall back on Vergne due to his own tires going, it's what made him stop. If his tires held as long as Hamilton's, then he would have passed Vergne as his tires went off and stayed ahead. Pitted a lap before Hamilton what 6-7 laps later and Rosberg would have been ahead of Hamilton. Hamilton also showed awesome pace after he got by Vergne, so Rosberg would likely have at worst held up Hamilton for multiple laps.

The fundamental problem he had post SC was his tires going off before Vergne, Hamilton or Vettel. It's a pattern and has been for many races. Over a stint Hamilton does the first 3-4 laps at a conservative pace(excluding late pit stops when required to put the afterburners on). He's frequently a little slower than Rosberg in the first 3-4 laps of a stint but faster for the other 10-20.

 

[Purdy]

Just watched it, amazing race by top 3. Riccardo looking miles better than Vettel

Alonso somehow holding onto that.

Lol@mercedes trying to make Hamilton move over when he's racing Alonso and just as, if not faster than rosberg, not sure why Nico is girning because he didn't have the ability to pass Hamilton properly.

 

[smr]

Why lol @ mercedes? I think the idea was that Rosberg would have scooted ahead, done his stop and possibly won the race... look how quickly he hunted all three down in the last 10 laps. Would have been a race win for Merc had Lewis abided by the team orders...

but then again I'm glad Lewis didn't. I like drivers who don't obey team orders, there should not be team orders in F1 imo. And holding Rosberg behind means Lewis has closed the gap a lot more than what it would have been had he let Rosberg go ahead of him so fair play.

 

[Purdy]

If he was fast enough he wouldn't be a second behind at the first corner everytime

 

[smr]

If he was fast enough he wouldn't be a second behind at the first corner everytime

Getting past Lewis on the second most difficult to overtake track in turbulent air was too much for Nico... but had Lewis played the "team" game (as merc wanted him to) they could see that on Nico's strategy, ie. having the ability to get on fresher tyres for his last stint he could well be in with a shot of winning the race. That's my theory anyway, might be wrong!

As it turns out Red Bull won, Merc did not.

 

[MissChief]

McLaren, poor choice, BUT if the rain did come as was originally predicted it would have been seen as a genius move. Generally though they say 'be on the right tyre for the conditions now' and that was slicks.

I don't think Rosberg was even in DRS range at all at any point, even after the message to Lewis. As he said, if he can get close enough, he can pass me. Also if you were to reverse the positions would Nico have moved over? Of course not!

 

[Purdy]

Getting past Lewis on the second most difficult to overtake track in turbulent air was too much for Nico... but had Lewis played the "team" game (as merc wanted him to) they could see that on Nico's strategy, ie. having the ability to get on fresher tyres for his last stint he could well be in with a shot of winning the race. That's my theory anyway, might be wrong!

As it turns out Red Bull won, Merc did not.

Well if he's over a second behind going into the first corner I don't see why you should be slowing to let a slower driver past, he didn't even get close.

He wouldn't get past Alonso either

 

[smr]

Well if he's over a second behind going into the first corner I don't see why you should be slowing to let a slower driver past, he didn't even get close.

He wouldn't get past Alonso either

I'm not talking about the fight from Lewis' perspective....

I'm just making the point that I can see WHY Mercedes were asking him to move aside - they could clearly see that Rosberg would have won the race and he no doubt would have done if Lewis had obliged.

I don't blame Lewis for not moving over - I'd have done the same, but to answer people who are confused as to why Merc asked Lewis to move over; it's because Nico would have won the race, his pace after the final stop was terrifying and almost a second a lap quicker than Alonso, Ricciardo and Hamilton.

 

[GravyMonster]

I don't think Rosberg was even in DRS range at all at any point, even after the message to Lewis. As he said, if he can get close enough, he can pass me. Also if you were to reverse the positions would Nico have moved over? Of course not!

He was a couple of times and got to around .4 away, but never closer.

I thought it was a little odd Mercedes decided to stick Hamilton on a 30 lap final stint. It was optimistic given the tyre wear, and given the fact that Hamilton's strength is burning his way through the field, not managing what resources he has left.

I know track position is important here, but the Mercedes more than any other car has the ability to attack. It smacked of the Merc pit wall being defeatist about the outcome of the race, rather than sticking to 2 stints on the softs and telling the drivers to go balls to the wall to the end.

 

[Millwall.FC]

Getting past Lewis on the second most difficult to overtake track in turbulent air was too much for Nico... but had Lewis played the "team" game (as merc wanted him to) they could see that on Nico's strategy, ie. having the ability to get on fresher tyres for his last stint he could well be in with a shot of winning the race. That's my theory anyway, might be wrong!

As it turns out Red Bull won, Merc did not.

If Hamilton was given rosberg's strategy Hamilton would have won this race a bit odd to see Hamilton go on mediums (when he had 4 new sets of softs) when pitting again was faster. If I was Lewis I would be asking for my own strategist and not share one who is employed to get the car who qualified 1st home 1st. If Hamilton was put on softs nico would have not been catching him up in the first place. bad strategy for lewis in this race.

 

[NooBish AbbZ]

Damn it. Wanted Rosberg to retire and Hamilton to win

 

[Purdy]

I'm not talking about the fight from Lewis' perspective....

I'm just making the point that I can see WHY Mercedes were asking him to move aside - they could clearly see that Rosberg would have won the race and he no doubt would have done if Lewis had obliged.

I don't blame Lewis for not moving over - I'd have done the same, but to answer people who are confused as to why Merc asked Lewis to move over; it's because Nico would have won the race, his pace after the final stop was terrifying and almost a second a lap quicker than Alonso, Ricciardo and Hamilton.

He would have? He couldn't get past Hamilton, I don't see him getting past Alonso, or Hamilton, Alonso and Riccardo all for a second time

I'm not confused, they were simply wrong to do so, he didn't have the pace to be on his arse, absolutely no reason to move over for a driver struggling to get into a half decent overtaking position. Hamilton could've done the same if he's in front of Nico