I think Massa just doesn't know how to race and yield when clearly being overtaken.
Indian Grand Prix 2011, Buddh International Circuit - Race 17/19
- Thread starter Duke
- Start date
I think Massa just doesn't know how to race and yield when clearly being overtaken.
If its not you, it will definitely be meSo the question is - if things stay as they are to the end of this season, do I return the favour to sunama, who went all Spanish Inquisition on me when I dared to suggest that Button could beat Hamilton in the title race? I mean, I was only a year out
...Ive always considered LH as Ivan Drago - I just dont think he has the capabilities to go deep down within himself and do better, hes just not had that chance to develop that part of his psyche - part of that is his development and association with McLaren from an early age IMO, hes had a far easier road than most (though I suspect this will end up being the mainstream way for F1 talent of the future)...
While hes been at McLaren hes had the ability to blame the car when performances havent gone his way (its not like he hasnt done that plenty of times), but now with JB outperforming him consistently where it matters, he cant even rely on that and perhaps is dawning upon him thats hes not as great as he (and his fans) think he is...
This season isnt a blip, the tyres are what we are going to have for a while yet and I cant see 'The Journeyman (tm)' not carrying this through this form to next season where the car/tyre package is more likely to suit his style more. In reality, when will LH realise hes going to become the Webber/Massa of McLaren?
ps3ud0
I dont know, think Button/Vettel is the better pair over Button/Alonso - I just dont think Vettel is as hot-tempered as Alonso and probably just as capable in allowing Button to compete without needng an entourage to ensure that happens.
Hell when you were saying LH needs to get into Red Bull, I was thinking Red Bull need JB - hes probably the most pliant no1 driver out there - though perhaps you need to redefine that old no1/no2 definition you use
ps3ud0
I could understand if Alonso was still the team mate that Lewis would feel unhappy about being consistently outpaced and beaten, but this is Jenson Button. The pair seem to have always got on well and there's no bad blood to speak of, plus Jenson is clearly in fantastic form, possibly the best of his career, so I think fair is fair.
It seems like since the major rule changes Lewis has struggled with getting a car how he likes and being in a position to challenge. We see him at his best when he's hunting someone down for the race win, not for 4th or 5th position. I think he may have no motivation to unleash his true performance because of the fact that McLaren haven't had the fastest car or been able to challenge Red Bull on pure pace until way too late in the season, and also because of the way the cars and new tyres work, he can't drive how he classically has, on the ragged edge, fighting the oversteer and somehow bringing unbelievable pace from a car. We only see glimpses in qualifying but it feels like he's holding back in races. The only reason I can see is trying to pace himself because of these tyres and strategy, when really they just need to give him a race where he can blast around as fast as possible as that's what he does best.
It's a shame because after 2008 I really thought we were looking at a multiple champion of the immediate future, but McLaren have failed to deliver overall I think. Consistently poor strategy decisions for Lewis and slow cars at the start of the season have stopped his chances dead. The real losers are the fans because when he was in his element, he's one of the best, if not the best driver to watch race and wrestle his car around the lap.
Off the track, I don't think it's anyone's place to really comment as nobody but Lewis and his closest friends, relatives etc will know what he's going through. I just hope it doesn't rob us of a great talent.
It seems like since the major rule changes Lewis has struggled with getting a car how he likes and being in a position to challenge. We see him at his best when he's hunting someone down for the race win, not for 4th or 5th position. I think he may have no motivation to unleash his true performance because of the fact that McLaren haven't had the fastest car or been able to challenge Red Bull on pure pace until way too late in the season, and also because of the way the cars and new tyres work, he can't drive how he classically has, on the ragged edge, fighting the oversteer and somehow bringing unbelievable pace from a car. We only see glimpses in qualifying but it feels like he's holding back in races. The only reason I can see is trying to pace himself because of these tyres and strategy, when really they just need to give him a race where he can blast around as fast as possible as that's what he does best.
It's a shame because after 2008 I really thought we were looking at a multiple champion of the immediate future, but McLaren have failed to deliver overall I think. Consistently poor strategy decisions for Lewis and slow cars at the start of the season have stopped his chances dead. The real losers are the fans because when he was in his element, he's one of the best, if not the best driver to watch race and wrestle his car around the lap.
Off the track, I don't think it's anyone's place to really comment as nobody but Lewis and his closest friends, relatives etc will know what he's going through. I just hope it doesn't rob us of a great talent.
already posted that matey!
They absolutely did. I remember very well the fan fair that Montoya arrived in f1 with and the covers of many F1 publications how he was the man to batter MS all over the track.
You can't give me any jip on the Button finishing ahead of Hamilton last year...because you were wrong.
However, you can give me some jip based on the fact that I did say that Hamilton, would finish ahead of Button this year.
The truth is that Button (and I've never seen this before), at a late age, is actually improving. He is getting progressively faster and is becoming more machine like, with ever race..
What about all that pap you used to spew about Lewis being the best because he played playstation and all the buttons on the wheel would favour him?
Simply these tyres have done the most to destroy his style. Last year for the majority Button couldn't live with his pace. In 09 he could drive the wheels off a bad car.
This year over driving the car is suicide, he can't drive like mansell used to on these tyres. Neither would mansell be able to. Sometimes car regulations change and they just don't suit a driver.
I don't think it's any coincidence that he's much faster over one lap and able to make the difference. If this was last years tyres I doubt we would be having this conversation. Last year when ever he had to go toe to toe with Button he could get him out the way. These tyres no longer suit the 'racer' they are for predetermined controlled race pace. You would never get the battle of fastest lap after fastest lap that you had with Mika and MS because they would be saving tyres.
I don't believe that at all, I don't think he had 'one love' on his crash helmet because JB was beating him. The proof of the pudding will be when they have a better car. If JB beats him in a title winner or genuine contender then I will be impressed. It's not like Jenson didn't have bad years or spells against team mates.
I can't believe he would be having issues mentally with Jenson with all that happened with Alonso, who was quicker and far far mentally stronger.
I think he's in need of help, I think he needs a good season next year and then a management team requesting no1 status if they want to keep fighting for titles.
If its not you, it will definitely be me
Ive always considered LH as Ivan Drago - I just dont think he has the capabilities to go deep down within himself and do better, hes just not had that chance to develop that part of his psyche - part of that is his development and association with McLaren from an early age IMO, hes had a far easier road than most (though I suspect this will end up being the mainstream way for F1 talent of the future)...
While hes been at McLaren hes had the ability to blame the car when performances havent gone his way (its not like he hasnt done that plenty of times), but now with JB outperforming him consistently where it matters, he cant even rely on that and perhaps is dawning upon him thats hes not as great as he (and his fans) think he is...
This season isnt a blip, the tyres are what we are going to have for a while yet and I cant see 'The Journeyman (tm)' not carrying this through this form to next season where the car/tyre package is more likely to suit his style more. In reality, when will LH realise hes going to become the Webber/Massa of McLaren?
ps3ud0
You seem very quick to write off Hamilton after one bad season. If if he gets beaten by Jenson again next year and has an equally terrible time then you may have a point, but at the moment, we just don't know.
I do agree with most of the points above, I feel that LH is only able to drive balls out, foot to the floor and aggressive, which isn't the way with these tyres. He also seems a bit erm thick almost, unable to think quickly and also unable to bide his time and attack when he needs to. JB is guilty sometimes of being a bit too conservative, but at the current time, he Alonso and Vettel seem to be the best at just doing enough and winning without wrecking tyres etc.
I disagree about Alonso being mentally stronger. Button seems like he's not serious, seems like he's happy and chipper - but he still goes out and gets the job done. Perhaps that's what Hamilton can't take, and JB seems to be all the more genuine since he won his title, whilst Hamilton doesn't seem to have grown up at all....
You are always judged against your team mate. Button was expected to be blown away by Hamilton, even the first year JB did better than many expected and you make the best of the machinery you're given. They are both being treated equally, so why doesn't that make Jenson a better driver? Just because the car isn't the fastest, you still need to beat your team mate. Button came into a team geared around Hamilton, and in his second year there is beating him...
Not really, have a look at my F1 post history and youll see Ive followed LH for quite a while (and Button for that matter) and always thought he wasnt that great (a racer, not a driver). Looking at the short-term future of F1 and its rules, this season I feel gives a good indication how things may turn out - its a far more grounded inference than this season just being a blip...
I, unlike some here, have never really jumped over the fence when the situation suited me
ps3ud0
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Not really, have a look at my F1 post history and youll see Ive followed LH for quite a while and always thought he wasnt that great (a racer, not a driver). Looking at the short-term future of F1 and its rules, this season I feel gives a good indication how things may turn out - its a far more grounded inference than this season just being a blip...
I, unlike some here, have never really jumped over the fence when the situation suited me
ps3ud0
Haha, nope. At the moment you saying Button is better than Hamilton is nothing but conjecture.
All we can really say at the end of this season is that they are equal.
Both drivers champions once and both beaten each other once in the same team and in the same car.
Next year will be very interesting. Perhaps 'the decider' if you will.
Soldato
A combination of this and the two clearly not having the respect for each other that you would find between most other top drivers i think.
Yet the popular view held here was that LH was going to annihilate JB, so to match his scoring would be against expectation; so what does beating him mean? Remember one was the meant to be best British hope of an all-time F1 great; while the other was labelled a Journeyman not capable of doing anything remarkable and was just happy to get paid. He was already written off, so why is there a need for a 'decider'?
...Id be grateful to hear why you think this year is just a blip and has little standing on next season and the factual reasoning behind it.
ps3ud0
Associate
There has clearly been several things going on this year, the bustup with his dad, splitting with his girlfriend, on track mistakes, stewards, saying stupid things etc etc.
I think being beaten by Button probably is a factor but I suspect that Vettel's success is more galling. Hamilton was hyped by the British media as the greatest ever driver who would win multiple championships but instead it is Vettel who is breaking records and won back to back championships.
As his dad said I think he just needs to get through the rest of the year and then sort himself out for next year.
I think being beaten by Button probably is a factor but I suspect that Vettel's success is more galling. Hamilton was hyped by the British media as the greatest ever driver who would win multiple championships but instead it is Vettel who is breaking records and won back to back championships.
As his dad said I think he just needs to get through the rest of the year and then sort himself out for next year.
Soldato
I can't see it getting much better for him if the tyres stay the same myself, He really struggles to manage them unlike others around him.
After watching pretty much a whole season with these tyres I'm not as keen as I was at the start of the season. I know a good racing driver needs to have all bases covered but I like to see balls out racing lap after lap, It all seems to be too heavily geared towards how you can manage those tyres, Push too hard for a lap or two or sit behind someone too long and you end up having to take an extra pit stop or you are crippled by the end of the race, For some this seems to be all to easy to fall into.
Don't like it myself.
After watching pretty much a whole season with these tyres I'm not as keen as I was at the start of the season. I know a good racing driver needs to have all bases covered but I like to see balls out racing lap after lap, It all seems to be too heavily geared towards how you can manage those tyres, Push too hard for a lap or two or sit behind someone too long and you end up having to take an extra pit stop or you are crippled by the end of the race, For some this seems to be all to easy to fall into.
Don't like it myself.
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Soldato
I think refueling was only really removed for safety - everyone thought it made better racing.
Associate
Overtaking stats
P. Lap. Driver on Driver Position
1. 2 Daniel Ricciardo Narain Karthikeyan 17
2. 9 Jaime Alguersuari Bruno Senna 10
3. 9 Paul di Resta Jerome d'Ambrosio 17
4. 9 Sergio Perez Jerome d'Ambrosio 18
5. 9 Vitaly Petrov Jeroem d'Ambrosio 19
6. 10 Sebastien Buemi Bruno Senna 11
7. 10 Paul di Resta Narain Karthikeyan 16
8. 10 Sergio Perez Narain Karthikeyan 17
9. 10 Vitaly Petrov Narain Karthikeyan 18
10. 14 Jaime Alguersuari Adrian Sutil 9
11. 14 Paul di Resta Daniel Ricciardo 14
12. 14 Sergio Perez Daniel Ricciardo 15
13. 14 Vitaly Petrov Daniel Ricciardo 16
14. 15 Sebastien Buemi Adrian Sutil 10
15. 17 Sergio Perez Paul di Resta 14
16. 17 Vitaly Petrov Paul di Resta 15
17. 18 Fernando Alonso Michael Schumacher 4
18. 20 Michael Schumacher Bruno Senna 8
19. 21 Paul di Resta Jerome d'Ambrosio 18
20. 26 Rubens Barrichello Narain Karthikeyan 17
21. 31 Lewis Hamilton Jaime Alguersuari 8
22. 31 Rubens Barrichello Daniel Ricciardo 16
23. 36 Vitaly Petrov Heikki Kovalainen 12
24. 41 Rubens Barrichello Narain Karthikeyan 15
25. 42 Paul di Resta Heikki Kovalainen 13
P. Driver Overtaking
1. Paul di Resta 5
==. Vitaly Petrov 5
3. Sergio Perez 4
4. Rubens Barrichello 3
5. Jaime Alguersuari 2
==. Sebastien Buemi 2
7. Daniel Ricciardo 1
==. Fernando Alonso 1
==. Michael Schumacher 1
==. Lewis Hamilton 1
(fewer than Monaco I think)
2011 so far
1. Jenson Button - 72
2. Mark Webber - 66
==. . Felipe Massa - 66
==. Sebastien Buemi - 66
5. Michael Schumacher - 65
==. Lewis Hamilton - 65
7. Jaime Alguersuari - 58
==. Sergio Perez - 58
9. Kamui Kobayashi - 56
==. Paul Di Resta - 56
11. Pastor Maldonado - 53
12. Adrian Sutil - 45
==. Rubens Barrichello - 45
14 Nico Rosberg - 44
15. Vitaly Petrov - 39
16. Nick Heidfeld - 36
17. Fernando Alonso - 33
18. Sebasian Vettel - 24
19. Bruno Senna - 20
==. Jarno Trulli - 20
21. Heikki Kovalainen - 14
22. Timo Glock - 11
23. Jerome D'Ambrosio - 10
24. Vitantonio Liuzzi - 8
25. Daniel Ricciardo - 5
26. Pedro De La Rosa - 4
27. Narain Karthikeyan - 3
28. Karun Chandhok - 0
1042 overtakes in 17 races = 61.29 overtakes per race.
P. Lap. Driver on Driver Position
1. 2 Daniel Ricciardo Narain Karthikeyan 17
2. 9 Jaime Alguersuari Bruno Senna 10
3. 9 Paul di Resta Jerome d'Ambrosio 17
4. 9 Sergio Perez Jerome d'Ambrosio 18
5. 9 Vitaly Petrov Jeroem d'Ambrosio 19
6. 10 Sebastien Buemi Bruno Senna 11
7. 10 Paul di Resta Narain Karthikeyan 16
8. 10 Sergio Perez Narain Karthikeyan 17
9. 10 Vitaly Petrov Narain Karthikeyan 18
10. 14 Jaime Alguersuari Adrian Sutil 9
11. 14 Paul di Resta Daniel Ricciardo 14
12. 14 Sergio Perez Daniel Ricciardo 15
13. 14 Vitaly Petrov Daniel Ricciardo 16
14. 15 Sebastien Buemi Adrian Sutil 10
15. 17 Sergio Perez Paul di Resta 14
16. 17 Vitaly Petrov Paul di Resta 15
17. 18 Fernando Alonso Michael Schumacher 4
18. 20 Michael Schumacher Bruno Senna 8
19. 21 Paul di Resta Jerome d'Ambrosio 18
20. 26 Rubens Barrichello Narain Karthikeyan 17
21. 31 Lewis Hamilton Jaime Alguersuari 8
22. 31 Rubens Barrichello Daniel Ricciardo 16
23. 36 Vitaly Petrov Heikki Kovalainen 12
24. 41 Rubens Barrichello Narain Karthikeyan 15
25. 42 Paul di Resta Heikki Kovalainen 13
P. Driver Overtaking
1. Paul di Resta 5
==. Vitaly Petrov 5
3. Sergio Perez 4
4. Rubens Barrichello 3
5. Jaime Alguersuari 2
==. Sebastien Buemi 2
7. Daniel Ricciardo 1
==. Fernando Alonso 1
==. Michael Schumacher 1
==. Lewis Hamilton 1
(fewer than Monaco I think)
2011 so far
1. Jenson Button - 72
2. Mark Webber - 66
==. . Felipe Massa - 66
==. Sebastien Buemi - 66
5. Michael Schumacher - 65
==. Lewis Hamilton - 65
7. Jaime Alguersuari - 58
==. Sergio Perez - 58
9. Kamui Kobayashi - 56
==. Paul Di Resta - 56
11. Pastor Maldonado - 53
12. Adrian Sutil - 45
==. Rubens Barrichello - 45
14 Nico Rosberg - 44
15. Vitaly Petrov - 39
16. Nick Heidfeld - 36
17. Fernando Alonso - 33
18. Sebasian Vettel - 24
19. Bruno Senna - 20
==. Jarno Trulli - 20
21. Heikki Kovalainen - 14
22. Timo Glock - 11
23. Jerome D'Ambrosio - 10
24. Vitantonio Liuzzi - 8
25. Daniel Ricciardo - 5
26. Pedro De La Rosa - 4
27. Narain Karthikeyan - 3
28. Karun Chandhok - 0
1042 overtakes in 17 races = 61.29 overtakes per race.
I agree.
I hate hearing that the drivers are driving conservatively to save fuel/tyres e.t.c.
I want them to be driving as fast as they can every lap. This is F1 not a le mans endurance race.