Indian Grand Prix 2011, Buddh International Circuit - Race 17/19

[JRS]

I think Massa should have turned-in slower and left a larger margin. The way he did it, it was just one almost immediate jerk to the left which gave Hamilton absolutely no chance to react.

You can see (and hear) that Hamilton was trying to pull out of the move because he lifts off the gas. But the rate at which Massa pulled left was just too fast.

Or on the flip side of the coin - Massa took the racing line into the corner, as he was entitled to do being ahead in the braking zone, and Hamilton didn't back out of his half-attempt at overtaking in time. It can be played either way mate

Massa knew there was an 80% probability that Hamilton was in his blind spot and he left no space. He just doesn't seem to respect other drivers, especially Hamilton.

I don't think that there is any mutual respect between the two, no matter what Hamilton says about attempting to make nice on the grid. Not a good situation to be in when you've got to race together at serious speed.

I'd prefer a return to the times of "racing incidents". You go for a gap that isn't really there? Fine, but don't act all surprised when I slam the door in your face - just like the Mansell/Senna incident posted above.

Yep.

As for tyres, fuel, and the never-ending debate - the answer is clear. Bin the ridiculous "both compounds" rule. Make a super soft and a super hard, make one capable of lasting the whole race at a more gentle pace and the other fall apart at around third distance if pushed hard but have enough of a time benefit to make it worth the gamble.

That's what we used to have, and it worked until pit lane speed limits came along. Then it got a lot harder to stagger the compounds because suddenly a pit stop chewed far too much into your racing time.

I sometimes wonder if I'm alone in thinking that the introduction of pitlane speed limits completely screwed up the show....virtually all the problems of race strategy can be traced back to it simply taking too long to change tyres. And isn't it funny how you very rarely saw unsafe releases when cars could drive at speed down the pitlane....seems like you see a car released into the path of another one every other race now.

The speed limit, for those who don't know, was a direct result of one incident. One. Alboreto shed a wheel on his way out of the pitlane on that awful day at Imola in '94, and in a freak accident that summed up the race meeting it clobbered a Ferrari mechanic. Speed limit was in place for the next round*. Swift response to a real problem, or complete overreaction brought on by the tragic events of the rest of the weekend? Take your pick.


* - along with the rule about mechanics not hanging around outside the garage when they aren't about to make a stop. That rule I do very much agree with.

 

[JRS]

Stuff that. Give all the teams a box and tell them the car has to fit in that. Gloves off best team wins

Works for me. But prepare to meet a barrage of:

• it's too expensive full-stop
• we'll end up with 300mph cars, it'll be too unsafe
• waaaaaah Ferrari will dominate!!!111oneoneone
• so you want it like the old days, huh? So I guess you want to see drivers dying every week as well don't you?!?! DON'T YOU?!?!

And other such criticisms - some well founded, others less so.

 

[Skeeter]

Lol.

Vettel has won the championship without having to use DRS, or KERS, or push his tyres.

How exactly will removing them slow him down?

Oh, and how about taking it HERE?

Works for me. But prepare to meet a barrage of:

• it's too expensive full-stop
• we'll end up with 300mph cars, it'll be too unsafe
• waaaaaah Ferrari will dominate!!!111oneoneone
• so you want it like the old days, huh? So I guess you want to see drivers dying every week as well don't you?!?! DON'T YOU?!?!

And other such criticisms - some well founded, others less so.

There is only one point that needs to be made. Unregulated development leads to unregulated costs. Unregulated costs will kill Formula 1. Simple as.

 

[MooMoo444]

# we'll end up with 300mph cars, it'll be too unsafe

Who cares about safety? Wheres the sprinklers and the roadside moats with crocodiles.

 

[mattyg]

Works for me. But prepare to meet a barrage of:

• it's too expensive full-stop
• we'll end up with 300mph cars, it'll be too unsafe
• waaaaaah Ferrari will dominate!!!111oneoneone
• so you want it like the old days, huh? So I guess you want to see drivers dying every week as well don't you?!?! DON'T YOU?!?!

And other such criticisms - some well founded, others less so.

They can still have crash tests.
Too expensive Its F1 the pinnacle of the sport can't afford it go play in GP2
People die doing their jobs all the time.

 

[dannyjo22]

I don't think that there is any mutual respect between the two, no matter what Hamilton says about attempting to make nice on the grid. Not a good situation to be in when you've got to race together at serious speed.

I don't see that as anything but Hamilton trying to break the ice and yet massa still whinged about that. Fair enough have a complain about Lewis's actions if he is unhappy but don't walk up when he's in a press conference bang his arm and run away. I'd have had a lot more respect for him if he'd stayed there and fronted it out instead of a hit and run job.

 

[dannyjo22]

As I said it's been a dull championship contest, but the races themselves have been much better.

Agreed for me there has only been two dull races this year. I'd still prefer better tyres for balls out racing but if that cannot happen ditch the two tyre rule and narrow the gap on the compounds. Even refuelling as was mentioned earlier.

Hell open it up and let us have another tyre war. Far better than watching cars sit 2 seconds down the road from another car sticking to a set pace.

 

[Demon]

I take it, there are no 'racing etiquette' rules in F1?

Online racing seems to have to lay down rules to prevent a lot of these situations, or provide a clear ruling when something occurs..

Most of the ones I've been subjected to seem to have a common set of rules for overtaking, the basics being that entering a corner, at the point the lead car turns in, if the attacking car has 50% or more overlap, then the lead car must give them room..

Or is F1 just all subjective?

 

[ps3ud0]

I don't see that as anything but Hamilton trying to break the ice and yet massa still whinged about that. Fair enough have a complain about Lewis's actions if he is unhappy but don't walk up when he's in a press conference bang his arm and run away. I'd have had a lot more respect for him if he'd stayed there and fronted it out instead of a hit and run job.

So FM saying he tried to talk to LH previously on numerous occasions but he wouldn't listen to him has fallen on deaf ears on these forums, yet again? Why should FM now entertain anything LH has to say when the chance to talk passed months ago...

Just amazed how FM is painted to be the scoundrel and LH absolved of any responsibility, yet he's at least partly responsible to continue this very public rift, its not like he hasn't lost favour with other people in his life - they must be all to blame bar him of course...


ps3ud0

 

[sunama]

I see no reason to believe that the closeness of the season relates to the KERS and the DRS.

Indeed.

Red Bull have delivered a simply better car and kept it up all season, that is all.

The part in bold is the key. They certainly had a brilliant start, but in the middle of the season, Ferarri and McLaren were running RBR, neck and neck. Races were exciting. Then, after the 3-4 week break, RBR came back with a car which was the class of the field, by a considerable margin and Vettel was once again winning with ease.

 

[El_Watcher]

I sometimes wonder if I'm alone in thinking that the introduction of pitlane speed limits completely screwed up the show....virtually all the problems of race strategy can be traced back to it simply taking too long to change tyres. And isn't it funny how you very rarely saw unsafe releases when cars could drive at speed down the pitlane....seems like you see a car released into the path of another one every other race now.

What I don't understand is why with all these new tracks being built over the last few years, none of them have built the pit lanes any different to the older circuits designed in the 50s.
Why couldn't they have made the Indian or Korean pitlane three times wider, therefore making it much less likely the mechanics would get hit, allowing higher speeds to be used?

 

[sunama]

Just amazed how FM is painted to be the scoundrel and LH absolved of any responsibility, yet he's at least partly responsible to continue this very public rift, its not like he hasn't lost favour with other people in his life - they must be all to blame bar him of course...

I think this relates to nationality.

Hamilton is a Brit, so on these forums "the other guy" is the villain.
in 2007, Alonso was the villain, while in Spain, Hamilton was the villain.
No doubt, on Brazilian forums, Hamilton is painted as the villain.

Personally, I think Hamilton is more to blame in the Massa vs Hamilton dispute.

 

[Skeeter]

Pitlane speed limits... uhh, what?

Every car has to travel the same, so it affects everyone the same? Wether they go down the pitlane at 120mph or 40mph, it will make no difference to strategy as everyone will be doing the same?

 

[MooMoo444]

Pitlane speed limits... uhh, what?

Every car has to travel the same, so it affects everyone the same? Wether they go down the pitlane at 120mph or 40mph, it will make no difference to strategy as everyone will be doing the same?

You misunderstand it. Someone doing a 1 stop, would lose say..20 seconds to pit lane time.

Someone doing a 3 stop, would lose 60 seconds.

If you took less time in the pits due to no speed limit, car 1 might lose half of that, where car 2 would lose half of his too. On new tyres, the smaller gap would be easier to make up.

I'm terrible at explaining things but I think that makes sense.

It's a terrible idea though, cars going 150mph down the pit lane isn't promoting the sports image of safety.

 

[JRS]

Skeeter - what the speed limits did was change the way teams approach race strategy. Stops cost 20-30 seconds, making it a brave move to go quicker and risk having to make an extra stop compared to your rivals. Yes, if they have to stop as well they face the same time penalty - but what if they don't stop? That's the risk, and one that hasn't been worth taking.

 

[Skeeter]

Ah, ok yeah I see what you mean, proportionally.

If stops only lost you seconds, then people would do it more and worry about saving tyres less.

However, people doing 150mph down pit lanes is just stupid. I get the concept now, but practically it wont happen.

EDIT: They could just make the pit lane a sizeable short cut, meaning even with a speed limit its still a minimal loss (Silverstone, for example?). The only issue with that is they would need to apply the strategy across all tracks, which would mean redesigning new pit lanes for all circuits.

 

[Lopéz]

Pitlane speed limits... uhh, what?

Every car has to travel the same, so it affects everyone the same? Wether they go down the pitlane at 120mph or 40mph, it will make no difference to strategy as everyone will be doing the same?

It makes an immense difference. If you're 1 stopping on a slow tyre, and I'm 3 stopping on a fast tyre, I'm going to have to hope my fast tyre is a LOT faster than your slow tyre because I'm going to lose masses of time in the pitlane.
No pitlane limit = less time lost changing tyres = much easier to develop 2 "staggered" compounds = varied racing.

Oh and anyone who thinks Vettel romping away with the title this year is down to tyres or strategy or fuel or anything like that is utterly deluded. Red Bull produced a great car, and Vettel has been largely flawless and incredibly quick at driving the thing.

 

[Lopéz]

Skeeter - what the speed limits did was change the way teams approach race strategy. Stops cost 20-30 seconds, making it a brave move to go quicker and risk having to make an extra stop compared to your rivals. Yes, if they have to stop as well they face the same time penalty - but what if they don't stop? That's the risk, and one that hasn't been worth taking.

The almost perfect example of what we are talking about is the 1990 French Grand Prix.

Plucky little Leyton House, with their underpowered but neat little CG901B gambled on a no-stopper to see if they could match the overall race pace of the conventional one stopping top teams.

I bet *nobody* realised just how close they would actually come to pulling it off. It's just a shame the car was so woefully unreliable. Imagine if the same rules applied this year? Sauber could really have pulled off some shock results, particularly with Perez.

 

[JRS]

Imagine if the same rules applied this year? Sauber could really have pulled off some shock results, particularly with Perez.

Yep, the two-compound rule has deprived us of some genuine surprises in the results - Sauber being one of those teams well-placed to try and pull that sort of thing off.

 

[MooMoo444]

Other problem with the "2 compound rule" is the 2 compounds are always too similar. They should have pretty hard tyres, and soft flimsy tyres. Not this soft and super soft jazz.

The difference between the two needs to be really noticable, to bring strategy back into it imo.