Intel has a Pretty Big Problem..

[Rroff]

granted it was crashing for me when I had asus armory crate configuring my GPU lights to match the game (weird!) enabled (this is default), only discovered this one after tweaking everything I could =/

I've run into some pretty odd issues with all the major vendors control panel software, especially software with RGB, etc. features, and games. Quite a bit of it seems down to telemetry this kind of software increasingly does had some issues with Gigabyte's causing crashing and poor performance, etc.

 

[Frenzy]

I've run into some pretty odd issues with all the major vendors control panel software, especially software with RGB, etc. features, and games. Quite a bit of it seems down to telemetry this kind of software increasingly does had some issues with Gigabyte's causing crashing and poor performance, etc.

Yeah, I'm not usually a fan of bloat but in order to use the fan control in windows I had to use armory crate. I fancied a bit of slow shifting rgb on my fans but that was asking too much. I didn't even enable the gpu light control feature, it was default! Someone, I think noxia pointed out some third party solutions so I feel a bit better about it now. It felt like asus was sabotaging itself, nuts.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But since AMD are and have been fabless for so long now, and nowwuth the success of Zen they could have come up with a strategy to go to 50%.

While the latest node is great, a more divergent strategy could see volume - but far lower margins on some of these - with all of these nodes:
1.TSMC 4NM (and why not spend big and do a 3NM design for certain server parts already).
2. TSMC 7NM/6NM.
3. Samsung nodes
4 Even GF 12NM forsome older parts or back ports of Zen3 APUs.

Would be huge amount of work and AMD would need far more validation and tape out teams, but just because Intel largely insists on using the same node for all of a generations parts from Celeron via i3/i5/i7/i9 to Xeon, does not mean a different strategy to get to 50%+ is not possible.

Aside from needing far more teams, AMD is chasing margins and seems uninterested in volume, or even the OEM relationships which having such volume and a full product stack could bring them.

This margins obsession may come and bite them eventually.

Not only the margins obssession,but also way too much capacity is set aside for consoles now.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Noticed a lot of AMD uberfans on the internet making comments elsewhere not to buy ANY Intel 13th and 14th generation CPUs. Wendell went into a lot of detail what models were affected and probably why. It's quite clear it is the Core i9 CPUs and possibly Core i7 CPUs if overclocked,etc because of too agressive boosting/voltage mechanism leading to degradation.

Now it is morphed into don't even get a Core i5 - yet the same uberfans ignored last year when a whole lot of Zen4 were failing too:

AMD identifies the root cause of Ryzen 7000 CPUs burnout issue, new AGESA released - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 7000 series with new firmware solving burning out issues AMD releases a statement and new firmware for board partners. AMD has seemingly solved the problem of burning Ryzen 7000 CPUs. The just-released AGESA (firmware) for AMD 600 series motherboards will limit the SoC Voltage to...

videocardz.com

As much as it is good to take these companies to task for pushing out untested hardware and settings,it makes you wonder how much brand love is figuring into a lot of these reactions.

In the end it doesn't benefit any of us if both companies don't compete with each other.

We saw what happened when AMD couldn't compete and we had £300+ quad cores and when Intel couldn't compete,the 5600X was almost £300.

 

[xaldub]

As consumers we need a strong Intel for competition, but at the moment I wouldn't touch an Intel chip even at a reduced price. As @Freddie1980 says, the second hand market for these chips is going to be interesting ... I can't imagine many enthusiasts buying them. But there are probably still a lot of people who bought Intel out of habit for years and aren't as informed about the industry now, who will blindly pick them up ( and get burned ).

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

I wouldn't be buying a used 13900/14900, but I'd probably be happy to pick up a 13700/14700 for the reduced prices we'll be seeing them at.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

As consumers we need a strong Intel for competition, but at the moment I wouldn't touch an Intel chip even at a reduced price. As @Freddie1980 says, the second hand market for these chips is going to be interesting ... I can't imagine many enthusiasts buying them. But there are probably still a lot of people who bought Intel out of habit for years and aren't as informed about the industry now, who will blindly pick them up ( and get burned ).

AMD had a whole lot of chips dying prematurely a year ago:

AMD identifies the root cause of Ryzen 7000 CPUs burnout issue, new AGESA released - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 7000 series with new firmware solving burning out issues AMD releases a statement and new firmware for board partners. AMD has seemingly solved the problem of burning Ryzen 7000 CPUs. The just-released AGESA (firmware) for AMD 600 series motherboards will limit the SoC Voltage to...

videocardz.com

It's probably the same reason as AMD found out - too high voltages applied to the CPU as standard,and AMD capped SOC voltages.

The high voltages start to damage the CPUs.AMD had to make a microcode update to fix it.

This is why I agree @KompuKare with all this silly one-upmanship by increasing power is stupid.

This is why the amount of problems seem to be Core i9>>>>Core i7>>>>>>>>Core i5.

But the issue here is nobody was saying to stop buying all Zen4 CPUs when there were problems,but when some Intel CPUs have problems it seems to be ALL newer chips should be avoided.

This is the same thing we had when the RTX4090 had problems and people were trying to say all RTX4000 cards were problematic.

I wouldn't be buying a user 13900/14900, but I'd probably be happy to pick up a 13700/14700 for the reduced prices we'll be seeing them at.

Apparently nobody should buy even a Core i5 now according to comments I am seeing elsewhere. Seems to be more schadenfreude then genuine concern!

 

[Aretak]

Noticed a lot of AMD uberfans on the internet making comments elsewhere not to buy ANY Intel 13th and 14th generation CPUs.

What makes somebody an "AMD uberfan"? Where do these people post? Because I certainly haven't encountered them whilst observing various places around the web discussing this issue. I guess if you go trawling through the Wccftech comments section or something you'll find the ragebait you're actively seeking, but I don't really understand why anybody would do such a thing. From what I've seen, most people, even on places that I'd consider somewhat Intel-leaning if anything like r/hardware on Reddit, are simply advising caution until more is known and demanding that Intel address the problem. Certainly I don't think this is the time to be urging anyone to rush out and buy an Intel CPU. This seems like a fairly serious issue and pretty widespread, given we even have game developers jumping in to speak up about it, telemetry in hand. Certainly more widespread indeed than the AMD issue that you're trying to conflate it with, which ultimately seemed to be something of a storm in a teacup. A few photos of damaged CPUs, a hastily-issued fix, some anger at motherboard vendors (especially Asus) and then it was largely forgotten about. Probably because the cause was quickly indentified and the problem solved, whereas Intel have known about this issue for a fairly long time now and are still yet to address it in any meaningful way. People have been reporting this instability for, at the very least, several months. It's blown up into something larger now because the bigger tech Youtube channels have finally picked it up, but I know Buildzoid at least made a video about it months ago.

In my opinion you're coming across as quite defensive and anxious to downplay the situation, and I don't really understand why. Bringing in wider issues like long-term competition and the health of the market is just bizarre. This is an ongoing situation with no fix available and Intel refusing to say much about it. It isn't unreasonable to advise people to hold fire on buying a 13th/14th-gen chip until there's more clarity about exactly what's going on, which is likely to only come when Intel make a statement. Any damage done to their brand in the meantime is, in my opinion, entirely on them. It has nothing to do with "brand loyalty" or "AMD uberfans" hiding under the bed. It's simple common sense and looking out for other people. If that's for some reason getting under your skin, you might well be an "Intel uberfan".

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

What makes somebody an "AMD uberfan"? Where do these people post? Because I certainly haven't encountered them whilst observing various places around the web discussing this issue. I guess if you go trawling through the Wccftech comments section or something you'll find the ragebait you're actively seeking, but I don't really understand why anybody would do such a thing. From what I've seen, most people, even on places that I'd consider somewhat Intel-leaning if anything like r/hardware on Reddit, are simply advising caution until more is known and demanding that Intel address the problem. Certainly I don't think this is the time to be urging anyone to rush out and buy an Intel CPU. This seems like a fairly serious issue and pretty widespread, given we even have game developers jumping in to speak up about it, telemetry in hand. Certainly more widespread indeed than the AMD issue that you're trying to conflate it with, which ultimately seemed to be something of a storm in a teacup. A few photos of damaged CPUs, a hastily-issued fix, some anger at motherboard vendors (especially Asus) and then it was largely forgotten about. Probably because the cause was quickly indentified and the problem solved, whereas Intel have known about this issue for a fairly long time now and are still yet to address it in any meaningful way. People have been reporting this instability for, at the very least, several months. It's blown up into something larger now because the bigger tech Youtube channels have finally picked it up, but I know Buildzoid at least made a video about it months ago.

In my opinion you're coming across as quite defensive and anxious to downplay the situation, and I don't really understand why. Bringing in wider issues like long-term competition and the health of the market is just bizarre. This is an ongoing situation with no fix available and Intel refusing to say much about it. It isn't unreasonable to advise people to hold fire on buying a 13th/14th-gen chip until there's more clarity about exactly what's going on, which is likely to only come when Intel make a statement. Any damage done to their brand in the meantime is, in my opinion, entirely on them. It has nothing to do with "brand loyalty" or "AMD uberfans" hiding under the bed. It's simple common sense and looking out for other people. If that's for some reason getting under your skin, you might well be an "Intel uberfan".

Not sure why you are defensive TBH - if I an Intel uberfan,then what does that make you? I am one of the apparently most pro-AMD people on here! HUB may have been onto something.

People on here have called me everything from an AMD fan,to an Nvidia fan to an Intel fan. When I criticised AMD for certain things,people were quick to call me names. When what happened transpired to be true,silence.

The difference I have been around for decades and say it as it is. I have been on AMD CPUs for six years - but it doesn't cloud my opinion on things. Like the same lot in the dGPU forum who hate me for criticising Nvidia,calling me an AMD fan even though I have an Nvidia card.

Some of us have been around for decades and seen issues like this crop up from both AMD and Intel. Intel had an issue with P3 CPUs 25 years ago when they tried to beat the Athlon CPUs and pushed clockspeeds and voltages aggressively. AMD had other issues like the TLB bug on the Phenom.

The AMD Zen4 issue was widespread enough that AMD had to push out a microcode update for ALL it's motherboards. A lot on here were downplaying the same comments about AMD CPUs having issues,saying they were minor until AMD said it was a problem. Early Zen CPUs also had some issues too IIRC,which required AMD to send out replacements.

---

It's clear the Core i9 CPUs are the ones affected most. Core i5 CPUs are not at all - even in all the data shown,hardly any Core i5 CPUs. Core i7 CPUs are much less affected. Lots of laptops use the same basic SOC too.

The laptop and Core i5 SKUs should have the most number of failures if it's a design problem. Also,Reddit is not a place to expect a considered response to anything - these were the same people who think AMD with 10% marketshare was stopping devs using DLSS.

Now if they start failing too in huge numbers,then maybe it's a design problem.

However,it's clear Intel is pushing voltage on some of the desktop SKUs,to get those single core clockspeeds. It's probably electromigration issues. I read commentary that this is probably affecting the ring bus on those affected CPUs. The AMD issue was also excessive voltage.

 

[humbug]

Noticed a lot of AMD uberfans on the internet making comments elsewhere not to buy ANY Intel 13th and 14th generation CPUs. Wendell went into a lot of detail what models were affected and probably why. It's quite clear it is the Core i9 CPUs and possibly Core i7 CPUs if overclocked,etc because of too agressive boosting/voltage mechanism leading to degradation.

Now it is morphed into don't even get a Core i5 - yet the same uberfans ignored last year when a whole lot of Zen4 were failing too:

AMD identifies the root cause of Ryzen 7000 CPUs burnout issue, new AGESA released - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 7000 series with new firmware solving burning out issues AMD releases a statement and new firmware for board partners. AMD has seemingly solved the problem of burning Ryzen 7000 CPUs. The just-released AGESA (firmware) for AMD 600 series motherboards will limit the SoC Voltage to...

videocardz.com

As much as it is good to take these companies to task for pushing out untested hardware and settings,it makes you wonder how much brand love is figuring into a lot of these reactions.

In the end it doesn't benefit any of us if both companies don't compete with each other.

We saw what happened when AMD couldn't compete and we had £300+ quad cores and when Intel couldn't compete,the 5600X was almost £300.

The thing is CAT every reviewer was aggressively telling everyone not to buy AMD's Piledriver chips even at half the price of Intel's dual cores and in many instances including gaming the 8320 was a better chip than those, they just drew a lot more power, but nothing like the problem Intel have now.

There was zero empathy for AMD looking certain to go bust and zero regard for competition from any tech jurno, they seemed to enjoy kicking AMD while they were down, a lot of people remember that and don't feel as charitable toward Intel as these Tech jurnoes now do.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The thing is CAT every reviewer was aggressively telling everyone not to buy AMD's Piledriver chips even at half the price of Intel's dual cores and in many instances including gaming the 8320 was a better chip than those, they just dew a lot more power, but nothing like the problem Intel have now.

There was zero empathy for AMD looking certain to go bust and zero regard for competition from any tech jurno, they seemed to enjoy kicking AMD when they were down, a lot of people remember that and don't feel as charitable toward Intel as these Tech jurnoes do.

Well,I would rather buy AMD given the chance. The FX6300 was always a nice little chip for the price compared to the Core i3. But probably you are right it's schadenfreude.

 

[humbug]

Well,I would rather buy AMD given the chance. The FX6300 was always a nice little chip for the price compared to the Core i3. But probably you are right it's schadenfreude.

I know, i remember.. i had one for a short while too.

FX 6300 vs i3 4150. the FX 6300 was much cheaper, near half the price. no one could argue the FX series was a good chip, it clearly wasn't, but it was not bad either and people did buy them despite tech jurnoes traying very hard to convince people not to.

 

[KompuKare]

The biggest thing here is that it has been months and months and Intel have done nothing except threw some motherboard vendors under the bus.

Since Supermicro W680 are in those gaming servers - in a DC - have problems: well Intel's statements have about as much credibility as Nvidia lack of anything during their infamous bumbgate.

Market balance or imbalance? I wouldn't worry until Intel are down to 30% or so. Long term the ideal is 50:50 but I would expect swings - as long neither dips below 30% consumers should be okay.

EDIT: and if motherboard vendors misconfiguration Z boards is the cause, then surely someone at Intel would have noticed at review time since a board running in surf should be noticeably slower.

I think Intel knew quite well how the review benchmarks were "won" but wanted to win at any cost.

EDIT2: phone typos.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

How is AMD going to get to 50% if Intel shipped over 6X the number of CPUs last year compared to AMD? A huge amount of AMD wafers are directed towards consoles still and for the forceable future. You would think by now AMD would have had Samsung as a second source. It's not merely brand reasons,historic reasons or even bribery why so much of the market is still Intel. It's because AMD has always never had enough capacity.

It's the same with dGPUs - half of dGPU sales are in laptops,and most desktop sales are in prebuilt systems. AMD never really had the supply to pressure Nvidia there either.

People keep forgetting that AMD also pushed power/TDP with Zen4 too. This was because they wanted to push every 1% of performance they could to not only win against Intel,but more importantly to charge as much as possible.

Zen 4 was released in September 2022. By the time AMD made a fix it was April 2023:

AMD Issues Second Statement on Ryzen 7000 Burnout Issues: Caps SoC Voltages

www.anandtech.com

The reality is with nearly 6.5X the sales of AMD last year,any issues with Intel will manifest themselves much quicker than AMD.

If Intel stopped making CPUs,there would be shortages in various markets. AMD would then start jacking up it's own prices - Zen3 had AMD overtake Intel and push up a six core to around £300,which was more than an overpriced Intel six core CPU. AMD did the same in the past when they are ahead.

AMD is no more your friend than Intel or Nvidia. The same investment groups own shares in all of them!

 

[Tetras]

Zen 4 was released in September 2022. By the time AMD made a fix it was April 2023:

AMD Issues Second Statement on Ryzen 7000 Burnout Issues: Caps SoC Voltages

www.anandtech.com

Afaik the burnout issue primarily applied to the X3D CPUs and they were released much later.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Got dates wrong!

Anyway,I get people have schadenfreude. However,be careful of what you wish for!

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

What makes somebody an "AMD uberfan"? Where do these people post? Because I certainly haven't encountered them whilst observing various places around the web discussing this issue.

Found the uberfan.
To hear you haven’t encountered them is a big giveaway. They’re just as easy to find as Intel uberfans.

Edit: They are everywhere.

 

[humbug]

Got dates wrong!

Anyway,I get people have schadenfreude. However,be careful of what you wish for!

People only seem to care about that now that the boot is on the other foot, this should always have been the concern but it never was so it never will be, some people simply call it karma and those people are going to behave in the same way they have been treated, especially when Intel are still "shipping 3X more CPU's" there are a few more pegs Intel can be taken down to.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

People only seem to care about that now that the boot is on the other foot, this should always have been the concern but it never was so it never will be, some people simply call it karma and those people are simply going to behave in the same way they have been treated, especially when Intel are still "shipping 3X more CPU's" there are a few more pegs Intel can be taken down to.

The big issue is unless AMD can increase it's own volume(which seemingly is not enough for all it's markets),any shortages in the market will mean we pay for more for the same CPUs.

 

[humbug]

The big issue is unless AMD can increase it's own volume(which seemingly is not enough for all it's markets),any shortages in the market will mean we pay for more for the same CPUs.

Consoles are in steep decline, they are going out of fashion, Microsoft are giving up entirely.

AMD have cancelled high end RDNA 4 i think to free up supply for APU's, Laptop makers have been telling AMD for years machines with your APU's sell and sell very well, people want them, but you're not supplying them, in the last 6 moths AMD have been saying, loudly we hear you, we are fixing that.
AMD have switched priorities, no one gives a _____ about AMD GPU's that much is obvious, took AMD way too long to learn that IMO but they have now, now they are concentrating on the products people do want, at _____ last!