Intel or Ryzen

[DNfk]

It is a good CPU, i like it, its capable and its cheap, @Joxeon is right, quite often its just as capable as the 5600X, which is a much more expensive CPU.

However, what you're seeing there is a limitation of the GPU, not the CPU, i guess the simplest way to describe it is the 11400F is just as capable, in a lot of cases driving a high end GPU as the 5600X, but that is not the same as saying the 11400F is just as fast, it isn't, that would be a bit like saying a Ford Focus is just as fast as a Porsche, it is at 70 MPH, now put them both on the Autobahn.

People sometimes make the mistake of looking at these bar charts and thinking this CPU costs £150 and this one costs £300 yet they both have the same sort of bar length, i'll get the cheaper one, of course, then a new round of GPU's comes along, they upgrade and are stunned to find their performance has not changed as much as they expected.

Take the Ryzen 3600 as an example, a lot of reviewers said things like, and i'm using an actual example here "the 9900K is only 6% faster than the Ryzen 3600" yea, with a 2080TI, now we have an RTX 3080 and the 9900K is 20% or more faster, because a Ryzen 3600 was just about as capable driving a 2080TI as a 9900K is not the same as "just as fast" and if you bought one last year, nice and cheap and now you're looking at a 3080 or even a 3070 frankly with the latest games you have to upgrade the CPU again and you're spending £300 anyway.

Its almost as if these reviewers are deliberately peddling products with built in obsolescence, they are not, they are just a bit stupid and think they are saving you money and driving down prices, AMD and Intel don't think so, they are looking at this thinking "you carry on my friend"

That's why i say its a false economy, unless you plan on keeping the GPU and CPU combo for a few years.

Makes so much sense thank you for explaining that to me. I would've thought they were similar as you said but now I understand. Will use my 3600 for the next 6 months and look to upgrade after that. Now I know what I'm looking for when I

It is a good CPU, i like it, its capable and its cheap, @Joxeon is right, quite often its just as capable as the 5600X, which is a much more expensive CPU.

However, what you're seeing there is a limitation of the GPU, not the CPU, i guess the simplest way to describe it is the 11400F is just as capable, in a lot of cases driving a high end GPU as the 5600X, but that is not the same as saying the 11400F is just as fast, it isn't, that would be a bit like saying a Ford Focus is just as fast as a Porsche, it is at 70 MPH, now put them both on the Autobahn.

People sometimes make the mistake of looking at these bar charts and thinking this CPU costs £150 and this one costs £300 yet they both have the same sort of bar length, i'll get the cheaper one, of course, then a new round of GPU's comes along, they upgrade and are stunned to find their performance has not changed as much as they expected.

Take the Ryzen 3600 as an example, a lot of reviewers said things like, and i'm using an actual example here "the 9900K is only 6% faster than the Ryzen 3600" yea, with a 2080TI, now we have an RTX 3080 and the 9900K is 20% or more faster, because a Ryzen 3600 was just about as capable driving a 2080TI as a 9900K is not the same as "just as fast" and if you bought one last year, nice and cheap and now you're looking at a 3080 or even a 3070 frankly with the latest games you have to upgrade the CPU again and you're spending £300 anyway.

Its almost as if these reviewers are deliberately peddling products with built in obsolescence, they are not, they are just a bit stupid and think they are saving you money and driving down prices, AMD and Intel don't think so, they are looking at this thinking "you carry on my friend"

That's why i say its a false economy, unless you plan on keeping the GPU and CPU combo for a few years.

Thank you for explaining this to me, will definitely help me in the future when choosing a CPU. Going to stick with the 3600 for about another 6 months then upgrade.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The only issue with the whole "you can get a Ryzen 9" later on argument is that all AM4 owners might want to do the same. It could lead to Ryzen 9 prices being consistently high for a few years. Even now Zen2 Ryzen 9 CPUs are still well over £300.

You also have to balance what your GPU budget is too. Spending another £100 to £200 on a CPU platform might not be worth it,if say your GPU budget is £250. It would be better to spend that extra on the GPU - it's why a lot of older CPUs still are fine for gaming,ie,the users are GPU limited.

 

[humbug]

In recent times:

i5 4690K - GTX 970: Good Combo.
i5 4690K - GTX 1070: the CPU choked the crap out of the GPU in a few games.
Ryzen 1600 - GTX 1070: Good Combo
Ryzen 3600 - RX 5700XT: Good Combo
Ryzen 3600 - RTX 2070 Super: Good Combo
Ryzen 5800X - well i really wanted an RX 6800X but then the world went mad. An all AMD build for the first time in..... yonks, i continue to hold hope. The RX 5700XT doesn't count.

 

[Joxeon]

The only issue with the whole "you can get a Ryzen 9" later on argument is that all AM4 owners might want to do the same. It could lead to Ryzen 9 prices being consistently high for a few years. Even now Zen2 Ryzen 9 CPUs are still well over £300.

Not to mention the 3900X still gets beat in gaming by a cheap 11400F and it's likely the 5900X will get beat by a 12400F or 6600X let alone what's out in a couple years time which is when most 5600X buyers would be wanting to cash in on the so called futureproofing option and drop in a higher core count CPU.

 

[humbug]

Not to mention the 3900X still gets beat in gaming by a cheap 11400F and it's likely the 5900X will get beat by a 12400F or 6600X let alone what's out in a couple years time which is when most 5600X buyers would be wanting to cash in on the so called futureproofing option and drop in a higher core count CPU.

I have given up on assuming Intel are a capable chip designer, its taken them 6 years to get their per core per clock performance up by 20% and that's only in a few outliers.

In 3 years, starting from the Zen 1 base AMD have push IPC up between 40 to 70% depending on what its doing, per core per clock performance is now 30% higher than Intel's no matter what the workload comparison is, AMD are saying 3D stacked Zen 3+ will push the IPC up another 15%, on that AMD have been 2.5D stacking their chips for years now, now they are 3D stacking while Intel have spent the last couple of years talking about 2.5D stacking. Intel talk a lot, we didn't even know about AMD's 2.5D and now 3D stacking until they had working silicon to show us.
My feeling at this point is what other deliciousness are AMD working on that they haven't told us about???

Rocket Lake was supposed to be the Ryzen killer, remember that? Next time, this time, the new hope, again, Alder Lake will put AMD back in its place, Alder Lake has a long way to go to catch up with Zen 3.

 

[Joxeon]

I have given up on assuming Intel are a capable chip designer, its taken them 6 years to get their per core per clock performance up by 20% and that's only in a few outliers.

In 3 years, starting from the Zen 1 base AMD have push IPC up between 40 to 70% depending on what its doing, per core per clock performance is now 30% higher than Intel's no matter what the workload comparison is, AMD are saying 3D stacked Zen 3+ will push the IPC up another 15%, on that AMD have been 2.5D stacking their chips for years now, now they are 3D stacking while Intel have spent the last couple of years talking about 2.5D stacking. Intel talk a lot, we didn't even know about AMD's 2.5D and now 3D stacking until they had working silicon to show us.
My feeling at this point is what other deliciousness are AMD working on that they haven't told us about???

Rocket Lake was supposed to be the Ryzen killer, remember that? Next time, this time, the new hope, again, Alder Lake will put AMD back in its place, Alder Lake has a long way to go to catch up with Zen 3.

Intel are only about 10% behind now on IPC with rocket lake and are about level with the mobile willow cove cores so are not that far behind really, I expect Intel will pull ahead when Alderlake releases but will likely be overtaken again with zen 4 but this is great for the consumer in terms of competition.

 

[humbug]

Intel are only about 10% behind now on IPC with rocket lake and are about level with the mobile willow cove cores so are not that far behind really, I expect Intel will pull ahead when Alderlake releases but will likely be overtaken again with zen 4 but this is great for the consumer in terms of competition.

In AVX workloads its pretty good, out of the box at least the 11900K scores about the same as my 5800X in single threaded, that's a lot higher than Coffee Lake, about 20% better, but you don't see them in the R23 thread, at all, because while my CPU is running 4.85Ghz to achieve around 1650 the 11900K is running 5.3Ghz and Zen 3 can clock another 200 to 300Mhz to break 1700 points, the 11900K is at its limit.

Lets look at what everyone cares about, Gaming, there are a lot of charts out there showing Coffee Lake and Rocket Lake and Zen 3 basically about even, with a small win to Zen 3, as many have said "just get whatever is cheaper"
In those charts is that the limitation of the CPU or the GPU? this is an important question, because if its a limitation of the CPU then we would be right to assume if Alder Lake gains another 15% then it would result 5 to 10% better than Zen 3.
If however Zen 3 is bottlenecked by the GPU then a faster Alder Lake will also be bottlenecked by the GPU and those charts will remain pretty much unchanged, because what you're looking at is the performance of the GPU, not the CPU.
The only way to get around that is to take the GPU out of the equation, you take the load off the GPU completely, you use very low resolutions, this method is purely scientific, but for measuring the performance of the CPU in games it matters, the Hardware Unboxed way of doing it is irrelevant to the CPU, perhaps even misleading.
Anand take a much more scientific approach to CPU testing for games, and i have some slides on my image host that show some pretty shocking performance differences between Rocket Lake and Zen 3 in games.
Every now and then you get a little look into it from even Hardware Unboxed, the Serious Sam 4 slide i have a few pages back is an example, the Ryzen 5800X is 22% faster than the 11900K in that, and the GPU is still the bottleneck.

If you think Alder Lake will beat Zen 3 in games, just like that... sure they might pull a stonker out of the hat, but don't be so sure

 

[sybaris]

think I will give water cooling a miss its too much expense and inconvenience

 

[humbug]

think I will give water cooling a miss its too much expense and inconvenience

Some of these new tower coolers are pretty good, they even seem to be more suitable for the 5800X than AIO's.

 

[boblabola]

OCUK has the 5900X which is pretty good VFM right now at £450 and would be my choice for the high end, Intel on the other hand offer better value at the budget end with CPUs like the 11400F going for just £150 but wouldn't touch the 11th gen high end stuff over ryzen.

My basket at Overclockers UK:

• 1 x AMD Ryzen 9 5900X Twelve Core 4.8GHz (Socket AM4) Processor - Retail= £449.99

Total: £458.69 (includes shipping: £8.70)
​

Decent price that. I paid £100 more and I'm very happy with it. Running it on X470 mobo (X470 AORUS GAMING 7 WIFI) which has had: R7 2700X, R7 3700X & R9 3900X running on it before this chip. I've just ordered an X570 board as I've run out of PCIe lanes - 3x Nvme drives will do that. Fancy looking at some PCI-e 4.0 speeds, plus allowing the GPU slot a bit more bandwidth - it's currently at x8 (PCI-e 3.0 ) - I'm also determined to get 4 slots of RAM working

 

[humbug]

I paid £440 for my 5800X.... i feel sick

 

[Troezar]

I paid £440 for my 5800X.... i feel sick

Should last you a long time though. I suspect I may not upgrade my 3700X as I don't think the jump from that to any final AM4 chip will be worth the cost. Better to put my money into a GPU.

 

[greatash]

I paid £440 for my 5800X.... i feel sick

at least we got far cry 6 with it paid £420 for mine

 

[welshrat]

Should last you a long time though. I suspect I may not upgrade my 3700X as I don't think the jump from that to any final AM4 chip will be worth the cost. Better to put my money into a GPU.

Same here however it may be tough if the 3d V-Cache chips appear and then sell cheap in a 1 1/2 years from now.