Intel’s surprise Ryzen killer

[Dave2150]

Hi Ryan, how's it going? In all seriousness though it might do ok in 8 core workloads but it's going to get stomped by a true 16 core. I could see it being good in a laptop with varied workloads but not so much for a desktop.

How many consumer grade desktop systems use software that actually utilizes 16 cores? Probably 0.0001% of the desktop consumer market.

Intel will make HEDT and xeon workstaion versions of the architecture with many more cores for that market, with a higher price tag.

 

[Dave2150]

In the second half of next year, and given recent record, quite likely slipping into 2022... totally, Zen 3 killer

There's been no mention of Zen 3 specifically in this thread - just the overall Zen architecture.

Zen was designed while Jim Jeller was the chief architect. Jim left AMD several years ago, to go to Intel. AMD have been bearing the fruits of his labour, cherry picking architectural gains each Zen release, this may now be coming to an end.

Meanwhile, we haven't yet seen the Intel designs that Jim Keller worked on, as Intel have been using a 6 year old process and almost 6 year old Skylake architecture still to this day. The fact that Zen 3 has only just managed to barely beat it in performance speaks volumes IMO.

Jim Jeller has now left Intel, though Alder Lake and the next generation after will bear his mark, and will undoubtedly be fantastic architectures. Yes, I'm a raging Jim Keller fanboy - he's been responsible for many fantastic CPU architectures over the years (Zen being one of them). Where he goes, good things follow.

 

[jigger]

I always find the big/small system horrible, on phones using that architecture I often make them almost exclusively use the big cores.

Intel need to do something because their power efficiency is dire, but yes pairing 8 power hungry cores with 8 mobile phone cores isn’t great. Especially when your competition can offer the same performance at a third of the power for less money.

 

[smilingcrow]

Especially when your competition can offer the same performance at a third of the power..

I was surprised recently when I looked at actual power consumption during gaming and there was hardly any difference between Zen 2 and Intel.
This was only one data point so not sure how much to extrapolate from that.
If you push the CPU 100% at stock then the gap grows to about twice as much in raw wattage.
But as you possibly implied, with Zen 3 16C v Intel 10C the performance per watt difference will be even larger, massively so.
Be interesting to see what the typical real world wattage differences will be for gaming on Zen 3.
Much less dramatic but still a clear win.

 

[Jimmy Weirdarms]

Yes, I'm a raging Jim Keller fanboy

So you're massively enthusiastic about the Zen chips?

Oh wait, no, the other thing, I've only ever seen you posting about how intel is the best, regardless.

 

[Troezar]

I was surprised recently when I looked at actual power consumption during gaming and there was hardly any difference between Zen 2 and Intel.
This was only one data point so not sure how much to extrapolate from that.
If you push the CPU 100% at stock then the gap grows to about twice as much in raw wattage.
But as you possibly implied, with Zen 3 16C v Intel 10C the performance per watt difference will be even larger, massively so.
Be interesting to see what the typical real world wattage differences will be for gaming on Zen 3.
Much less dramatic but still a clear win.

Not sure which data you were looking at but I was recently comparing similar figures and compared to my 3700X comparable Intel chips were using a lot more power. Not surprising given they are on 14nm and much higher clocked.

 

[smilingcrow]

Not sure which data you were looking at but I was recently comparing similar figures and compared to my 3700X comparable Intel chips were using a lot more power. Not surprising given they are on 14nm and much higher clocked.

I was looking at Techpowerup, where were you looking?

 

[chrcoluk]

now my new UPS has a led display for power consumption, I did a test after first connecting it with only PC powered up idle on desktop, monitor off and was around 90w, this is entire system, so when idle usage is that high, saving things like 5w, on cores been sleep is almost irrelevant.

On the flip side my pfSense NUC which is intel i5 powered, uses so little power the UPS doesnt register it, reporting 0 watts when its the only thing powered up.

The difference seemingly been how efficient the motherboards are and things like connected spindles.

 

[Troezar]

I was looking at Techpowerup, where were you looking?

Ok to be fair I was looking at a different comparison. Gamers Nexus test on the 10900K. In the power graph tested on Cinebench I was seeing 3700X Vs 9900k nearly twice the power draw. Maybe gaming is not as taxing?

It does seem Intel can spike a bit in power use when hitting those high clocks. In things like blender a 10900K system can be 3X as high as my 3700X system albeit with higher performance and more cores to push. There is obviously diminishing returns with not achieving 3x the performance for 3x the power use. Definitely much closer in gaming though. I suspect because most games aren't using all the cores to their maximum.

 

[LePhuronn]

Yes, I'm a raging Jim Keller fanboy

And if Intel hadn't hit significant issues with their 10nm process, your beloved Jim's Zen would still be a 2nd fiddle afterthought. The Ice Lake design is great, Willow Cove, Golden Cove, Ocean Cove, etc. are all great designs. But they were designed for process nodes that just don't exist, and now backporting to bigger nodes cripples the design wins. However great a job AMD have done to catch and surpass Intel, arguably it would never have happened if Intel could make 10nm CPUs 3 years ago as intended.

Jim Keller could envision a monstrous Intel architecture, but if he intended it to run on Intel 7nm (which is going to be delayed for years again) then all benefits will be lost when it's backported to 10nm.

AMD have designs planned up to Zen 5, Keller's influence will be felt for another 2 Zen generations. Can Keller beat himself with Alder Lake vs Zen 4? Not if Intel can't actually make it, he can't.

 

[Vince]

And if Intel hadn't hit significant issues with their 10nm process, your beloved Jim's Zen would still be a 2nd fiddle afterthought. The Ice Lake design is great, Willow Cove, Golden Cove, Ocean Cove, etc. are all great designs. But they were designed for process nodes that just don't exist, and now backporting to bigger nodes cripples the design wins. However great a job AMD have done to catch and surpass Intel, arguably it would never have happened if Intel could make 10nm CPUs 3 years ago as intended.

Jim Keller could envision a monstrous Intel architecture, but if he intended it to run on Intel 7nm (which is going to be delayed for years again) then all benefits will be lost when it's backported to 10nm.

AMD have designs planned up to Zen 5, Keller's influence will be felt for another 2 Zen generations. Can Keller beat himself with Alder Lake vs Zen 4? Not if Intel can't actually make it, he can't.

On top of this Keller had much better fabric and interconnects to work with at AMD so to push out a design to compete with Zen properly intel first need something a lot better than ringbus or their mesh.

 

[kevman]

I was looking at Techpowerup, where were you looking?

I saw this and was quite surprised. Is this just gaming vs productivity? because I thought that it would be an AMD landslide for power consumption.

 

[jigger]

I was looking at Techpowerup, where were you looking?

Can you post the link?

 

[RavenXXX2]

Witcher 3 hardly gonna push the cpu.

 

[smilingcrow]

Ok to be fair I was looking at a different comparison. Gamers Nexus test on the 10900K. In the power graph tested on Cinebench I was seeing 3700X Vs 9900k nearly twice the power draw. Maybe gaming is not as taxing?

It does seem Intel can spike a bit in power use when hitting those high clocks. In things like blender a 10900K system can be 3X as high as my 3700X system albeit with higher performance and more cores to push. There is obviously diminishing returns with not achieving 3x the performance for 3x the power use. Definitely much closer in gaming though. I suspect because most games aren't using all the cores to their maximum.

I saw this and was quite surprised. Is this just gaming vs productivity? because I thought that it would be an AMD landslide for power consumption.

Can you post the link?

Witcher 3 hardly gonna push the cpu.

I did specifically say that I was referring only to gaming as the power comparison at full load is known to be massive.
If you look at a Techpowerup graph, the product highlighted in colour is the one being reviewed.
It is just one game which is why I wondered if it was representative of gaming in general. I suspect not, but the difference should be less significant than for a full load. I suppose if gaming at 4K where the CPU isn't pushed so hard the difference will be smaller than for 1080P gaming!

 

[jigger]

I did specifically say that I was referring only to gaming as the power comparison at full load is known to be massive.
If you look at a Techpowerup graph, the product highlighted in colour is the one being reviewed.
It is just one game which is why I wondered if it was representative of gaming in general. I suspect not, but the difference should be less significant than for a full load. I suppose if gaming at 4K where the CPU isn't pushed so hard the difference will be smaller than for 1080P gaming!

It depends on the motherboard used. Having read some of your previous posts I’m pretty sure that graph is using a board that limits Intels performance and power use/and or that game isn’t representative.

 

[humbug]

On top of this Keller had much better fabric and interconnects to work with at AMD so to push out a design to compete with Zen properly intel first need something a lot better than ringbus or their mesh.

Right. Infinity Fabric came from Lisa, not Keller, Keller got AMD out of the poo but the cores are way beyond Kellers original design at this point.

 

[smilingcrow]

It depends on the motherboard used. Having read some of your previous posts I’m pretty sure that graph is using a board that limits Intels performance and power use/and or that game isn’t representative.

They list the hardware used and give data for the game being tested so you can see if their FPS are representative.
I have no idea on either count and as I said it's just one data point.
Are there any tests on gaming power consumption that are much more complete?
It seems an issue worth investigating as there are a lot of gamers here and power efficiency is back in vogue as a topic.

Not sure what my previous posts have to do with Techpowerup's data!
Just because I don't suck up to AMD that doesn't imply I'm biased towards Intel who I disparage a fair amount.
The people I disparage the most are those that spread fake news because of their allegiance to company A and hatred of company B.
It's not important what A and B stand for.

 

[jigger]

They list the hardware used and give data for the game being tested so you can see if their FPS are representative.
I have no idea on either count and as I said it's just one data point.
Are there any tests on gaming power consumption that are much more complete?
It seems an issue worth investigating as there are a lot of gamers here and power efficiency is back in vogue as a topic.

Not sure what my previous posts have to do with Techpowerup's data!
Just because I don't suck up to AMD that doesn't imply I'm biased towards Intel who I disparage a fair amount.
The people I disparage the most are those that spread fake news because of their allegiance to company A and hatred of company B.
It's not important what A and B stand for.

Link?

 

[4K8KW10]

The Ryzen killer (Alder Lake) has been pictured, boy is it a big CPU!

https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-alder-lake-s-cpu-pictured

This is likely to be Intel's next Sandy Bridge moment, restoring normality and eclipsing anything AMD can offer. Huge number of pins, so massive IO bandwidth - think DDR5, PCIEv5, more lanes from CPU. Jim Keller has left AMD, I doubt there any many more cherry's to pick to improve on Ryzen much further.

The big-small architecture (small atom like cores couple with the big ones) will get software optimisations due to Intel's massive influences, and will echo in a new era for power efficiency and performance.

Hopefully AMD can fight back with Zen 4, though I wouldn't expect that they can compete with Jim Keller's Alder Lake design.

AMD has a 64-core Ryzen Threadripper. The only problem is if they wish to sell it for $1000, for instance. Shrinks are solutions, too.

IMO Alder lake gets stomped by Zen. Big little sounds like a windows scheduler nightmare waiting to happen. Given it took the best part of 2 years for the scheduler to be sufficiently "fixed" for Zen I cant see this big little being better in any meaningful way if anything it's much harder to schedule for. The fact that it is a Keller design is interesting if it actually is the fruits of his labour, given the timing you would expect at best that Alder lake was basically done by the time Keller Joined so we shouldn't expect Keller magic in Alder Lake. In fact I have heard it said several times that the Ocean Cove cores (those of Alder Lakes successor) are the most likely to be Kellers work.

Intel has so serious influence over the entire industry, that fixing the compilers and Microsoft's things straight away will be the single smallest problem.

For Intel, it's more difficult to get the actual hardware done right on the manufacturing lines.