Intersex / transgender etc competing. Thoughts?

[drunkenmaster]

Surely an XY determination system would work in cases like this?

It is something definitive and clear cut for the vast majority of the human race

XY just doesn't matter here, there is so much evidence to the effect of testosterone in performance, it is the key factor. Genitalia means nothing, a man can have uber low test, a woman can have uber high test and a intersexed or trans person can have low, high or normal test.

Rename mens to high test category, and womens to low test and you have the answer really.

Ignore the sex, men with clinically proven low test should be able to under extremely strict control, like medical tests done with an IOC center in each country or continent and get their test levels monitored and a replacement to a sensible reasonable level, not at the high end, but midrange for male athletes. Likewise women with provably high test can compete if they take drugs to end up with a reasonable amount of testosterone and intersexed people can choose which category they join. If like Semenya they have very high test levels(hers appear to be in the high range for men and are out of this world compared to female athletes) they can choose to compete in high test or take action to compete fairly in low test group.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Lack of evidence, still waiting to hear something official on that.
By contrast, fellow athletes who've shared changing rooms claim she is most definitely female... If she ain't got the meat and veg, she ain't a man.
But the official ruling, which generally preserves the privacy of the athletes, is that she's allowed to compete as a female, so I guess that's all you need?

CAIS pages seem to specify that, although XY chromos are present, the male side does not fully develop. So while her Testo might be high for a woman, it's not high enough for a man. The IOC ruled that she was allowed to compete as a female, so that's pretty final.

I suppose they could rule that she wasn't allowed to compete either way, on the basis that they couldn't decide her gender for her...

Under the rule that didn't allow test to be higher than pretty much twice that of female athletes and well into male levels to compete she had to take drugs to lower her testosterone. Only since they've changed that and she can now have levels as high as three times the highest female athletes has she stopped taking the drugs(so the implication here is she has levels at the high end of male test levels) did her performance come back and she was allowed to compete off the drugs.

So no, her test levels say they are miles out of female range and very much male only test levels. 'She' also has male sex organs, she has internal testicles and no ovaries or uterus and male level sex hormones. Men can have incorrectly formed external genitalia, women in general don't have testicles, a male physique, male hormone levels and male level performance in sports.

As I said, male/female is irrelevant, the performance you can produce in a range A of test levels which are fairly low and lets say common for all females including top athletes and inactive slobs, and the performance you can produce in a range B of test levels which are high and common for all males is night and day. If we want 'non discriminating' but fair sports competition we need high and low testosterone groups, not men and women and those that fall in between choose which group to compete with based on their test levels but with the added choice of reducing testosterone to range A should they want to.

It was as a result of Semenya, and the absolutely disastrous handling of that situation, that the policy changed, and until last year, the policy in place said that women could compete only if their testosterone levels were below an upper limit. That upper limit, 10 nmol/L, was set up based on a study done on all the women competing in the World Championships in 2011 and 2013. The researchers took the average testosterone levels of women with a condition called Polycystic Ovary Syndrome, which was already elevated at 4.5 nmol/L, and then added 5 SD to it.

The addition of 3 SD (which created a level of 7.5 nmol/L) would have meant that 16 in 1000 athletes would exceed the cutoff. That’s why the extra 2 SD were added, to make sure that the upper limit would apply only to those with hyperandrogenism (or those who are doping).

99% of female athletes, by the way, had testosterone levels below 3.08 nmol/L. So the upper limit of 10 nmol/L was three fold higher than a level that applies to 99 in 100 women participants.

Semenya’s performances, under this policy of reducing testosterone, dropped off in a predictable manner. Having run the 1:55.45 at 18, she never got close again, though did win Olympic silver in London (behind a doper), and a World silver in 2011. Last year, she failed to advance beyond the semi-finals in Beijing, and hadn’t even made the qualification mark for the preceding year’s Commonwealth Games. 2:00 had become a significant barrier, when the world record had been plausible at 18.

This is from the link posted on the last page. 99% of female athletes were below 3.08 levels. The upper limit they put was 10nmol/L, Semenya had to take drugs to reduce her test when that limit applied which killed her performance. They removed this rule, her test went back to normal off the drugs and her performance increased, absolute proof testosterone increases performance in women despite them reversing the limit because "there wasn't enough proof testosterone improved performance in women".

Normal test levels are 0.52-2.4nmol/L for women, 9-38 for men. then factor in when limited just to 10nmol/L and any sensible athlete would keep it as high as possible in that range, her performance tanked which indicates a massive drop in testosterone, not just from 11 to 10 but more likely from 30+ to <10. Even if it was 11 to 10, that is strictly male test levels, not female, the reality is a performance drop she saw would only come from a massive drop so she has fully male athlete level test, ie >30. Only 16 female athletes would have been unable to compete with a limit of 7.5, none of those would be unable to compete with that 10 limit, so the very highest completely abnormally high female test levels were far below Semenya's.

 

[ttaskmaster]

She could compete if she took testosterone blocking medication and her times fell and she fell into obscurity for the most part.

You can compete if you take drugs to curb your natural state and make you not as good as you naturally are... Yeah, that makes sense!!

Suddenly Semenya is back to her best miraculously and destroying the field again. How is that not proof that testosterone affects performance massively.

Some other articles argued that if testosterone was THAT much of a factor, then all the other athletes found to be taking it to boost their performance would be far better than they actually are.
Over a very long period (as in years), it will make a difference, but the arguments suggest that most of what athletes dose on has very minimal results.
I'd say that this just proves whatever she took to reduce her testosterone levels is effective at curbing performance.

Well, that and the well known and proven fact that testosterone affects performance in both men and women.

In the same way that taking a single drag from a cigarette affects your lifespan, perhaps... Plus, taking steroids inhibits natural testosterone - So if testosterone is the thing you want, why do athletes take steroids and enjoy enhanced performance from them?

She has the testes, they are just inside not outside.

You have a picture of this?
An official report on her tests?
Or is she as much of a man as Lady Gaga, again?

She has no womb, ovaries etc the primary female reproductive organs.

Proof?

so the implication here is she has levels at the high end of male test levels

So she must be achieving run times at the upper end of the male categories and beating most of the men too, no?

So no, her test levels say they are miles out of female range and very much male only test levels.

Have her results been officialy published, then?

'She' also has male sex organs, she has internal testicles and no ovaries or uterus and male level sex hormones.

Official proof?
I think you're also the first person in the thread to say 'she' like that, suggesting that most people still see her as female.

This is from the link posted on the last page.

Which states nothing in regard to her womb, ovaries or testes...
It also says nothing of what nmol/L her test results showed... just states values and limits.

They removed this rule, her test went back to normal off the drugs and her performance increased, absolute proof testosterone increases performance in women despite them reversing the limit because "there wasn't enough proof testosterone improved performance in women".

OK, so I'll put a test out for you - You go drink some water and run a mile, tell me what your time is. Then go take some Rohypnol to reduce your performance and repeat the run... then stop taking Rohypnol and see what your third run comes in at.
Definitive proof that drinking water enhances performance? Or just proof that inhibitor drugs inhibit?

Normal test levels are 0.52-2.4nmol/L for women, 9-38 for men.

And what were her test results?
Has anyone actually got the figures for this?

her performance tanked which indicates a massive drop in testosterone, not just from 11 to 10 but more likely from 30+ to <10.

You can tell an athlete's actual testosterone value just from their run times?
You can map out, say, 12.5nmol/L = 100m in 12 seconds.... or 0.5nmol = -5 seconds per 50m run?
You don't need to stick them with a needle and do anything scientific?
Wow, you're good...

Only 16 female athletes would have been unable to compete with a limit of 7.5

Wasn't that 16 in every 1000, rather than 16 specifically known individuals?

 

[cheesyboy]

Why do we need proof to discuss whether an athlete assumed to be intersex, with XY chromosomes and a male level of testosterone should be allowed to compete with women?

As things stand, an intersex athlete with all of those things going on is allowed to compete with women. The question is - should they be?

Semenya was, indeed, taking medication to reduce testosterone. That means she must have had testosterone levels above the 10 nmol/L limit mentioned above, which does indeed assure us that she carried a male level of testosterone.

It's a sample of one, but her results whilst on medication were much worse than when off it.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Why do we need proof to discuss whether an athlete assumed to be intersex, with XY chromosomes and a male level of testosterone should be allowed to compete with women?

Because you're assuming.
If having/being so is that much of a factor, I'd personally want to see official proof that she has it... Otherwise we might as well condemn everyone as the criminals they are assumed to be just because The Sun says they are, no?

As things stand, an intersex athlete with all of those things going on is allowed to compete with women. The question is - should they be?

My answer is simple - If they're like that naturally, then why not?
If nature gives you an insanely big advantage over everyone else, then tough **** for them.

Semenya was, indeed, taking medication to reduce testosterone. That means she must have had testosterone levels above the 10 nmol/L limit mentioned above, which does indeed assure us that she carried a male level of testosterone.

Makes sense... but did she not voluntarily take that medication, though?
I thought it was of her own volition, not something the officials made her do in response to her test results?

It's a sample of one, but her results whilst on medication were much worse than when off it.

Was it a defined ratio of performance to nmol/L levels, or could there have been additional factors of the medication that further hampered performance?
I can't believe the medication only reduced her Test levels. No medication comes without side effects.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

In the same way that taking a single drag from a cigarette affects your lifespan, perhaps... Plus, taking steroids inhibits natural testosterone - So if testosterone is the thing you want, why do athletes take steroids and enjoy enhanced performance from them?

From my understanding:
Testosterone is a steroid. Anabolic (synthetic) steroids has a similar chemical structure to testosterone and produces a very similar/the same affect as testosterone.
Your body will naturally attempt regulate the level of testosterone/steroids in your blood stream. By injecting anabolic steroids the body believes it has surpassed the limit that is set and inhibits testosterone production to lower the levels in the blood stream.

 

[tom_e]

Test is a naturally occurring anabolic androgenic steroid hormone, but it is relatively weak in terms of strength and muscle building power compared to other made in a lab AAS.

Any use of AAS will shut down a users natural test production but most will use a small amount of injected test to keep the body ticking over while using higher doses of the more powerful synthetic AAS to actually achieve their goals.

Although it's relatively weak compared to other available drugs it still provides a massive boost over a natural athlete in terms of being able to train harder and more often.

 

[drunkenmaster]

OK, so I'll put a test out for you - You go drink some water and run a mile, tell me what your time is. Then go take some Rohypnol to reduce your performance and repeat the run... then stop taking Rohypnol and see what your third run comes in at.
Definitive proof that drinking water enhances performance? Or just proof that inhibitor drugs inhibit?

In general, when an argument gets silly and you attack every point rather than discuss it sensibly it rather indicates you have no useful input but a point to prove. She wasn't taking Rohypnol, she was taking a commonly used drug to reduce testosterone which lots of people take(for other reasons) and does it's job of reducing testosterone rather than say, causing a leg to fall off. She had great times, she was then taking a drug that reduces testosterone, her performance were bad and then when the rule was changed and she went off said medication her performance went through the roof.

And what were her test results?
Has anyone actually got the figures for this?

No one claimed to know, but implication with a bit of real reasoned deduction isn't an unfair means of estimating. which brings us to your silly 'attack'.

You can tell an athlete's actual testosterone value just from their run times?
You can map out, say, 12.5nmol/L = 100m in 12 seconds.... or 0.5nmol = -5 seconds per 50m run?
You don't need to stick them with a needle and do anything scientific?
Wow, you're good...

Did I ever claim as much? If the average male athlete has lets say 40nmol/L test levels and the average female athlete has 3 nmol/L, and those who have taken test reducing drugs as those in the article as they transition from male to female also see a 10-12% performance reduction as their test levels drop, while the relatively speaking slower mens athletes are still way above female athletes in performance, it stands to reason that a relatively small reduction like from 15 - 9.9nmol/L, wouldn't have nearly as big a change as in going from 30 to 9.9nmol/L.

Her drop off in times was huge, she exhibited the same drop off in performance as many other people who have for other reasons used testosterone reducing drugs, she broadly speaking exhibited female(sub 4nmol/L) performance levels compared to female trashing lower end male performance which indicates a pretty large drop in performance and thus testosterone. As she only had to take enough to come in below 10, not to be down at say 4nmol/L, this indicates a very large drop in testosterone.

In terms of testosterone itself and doping. Women have naturally pretty low production, men have pretty high production to begin with, in terms of cheating in high level sports, they have testing to contend with. The amounts of test joe bloggs from down the gym injects to impress his friends with uber biceps and the amount Gaitlin can get away with while remaining not caught is vastly different. Due to testing for drugs athletes are mostly looking for a tiny boost to take them just beyond everyone else, not blow their times away, they don't want to stick out like a sore thumb nor have their testicles shrink, bad acne and blood hormone levels that are ridiculously obvious. They are just looking for that very slight edge in most cases. So a male athlete might want to go from 38nmol/L to 42nmol/L, while Semenya is well over 3 times higher test than the average female athlete.... a male athlete testing with testosterone levels of say 130nmol/L will set every alarm bell ringing when his blood is tested. Those that do take insane amounts to cheat their way to the top are caught long before they do anything serious in the world of athletics, those that do cheat and get away with it, cheat to bring their levels up as high as they can get away with and still seem within the realms of normal. This is the difference, cheaters won't have 3 times the test levels of almost all the competitors in their field, Semenya does have more than 3 times the test level difference(even considering just 10nmol/L, when it's extremely likely she's somewhere well above that) of the majority of the people she competes with.

She has an option, she has testicles, male hormone levels, compete with the men, but she wouldn't have a monumental advantage there so they are fighting to get her included with the women.

Maybe think about it another way, if a trans man who simply identifies as a woman but is pre op, takes no drugs but has low test for men and has lets say 9nmol/L test levels, very bottom of male normal range(but lower than Semenya) but 3 times higher than the average female athlete, can 'she' compete with the women just because 'she'd' have a monumentally better time competitively against the women than the men?

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

She was born like it.
She's done nothing to make it happen.
Yes, it's the same.
Might as well ban a girl from modelling because she's much prettier than all the other models.

No she wasn't born female she was born intersex but chooses to be a female and compete in athletics against females. Your modelling analogy isn't vaguely the same

I believe the current IOC guidelines for transgender athletes is:

Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition.

So intersex can choose without restriction while transgender must take meds. to restrict their testosterone levels

 

[ttaskmaster]

In general, when an argument gets silly and you attack every point rather than discuss it sensibly it rather indicates you have no useful input but a point to prove.

The whole concept of the argument is silly IMO, as well as being based on nothing more substantial than tabloid ramblings.

No one claimed to know, but implication with a bit of real reasoned deduction isn't an unfair means of estimating. which brings us to your silly 'attack'.

And yet they 'know' what internal organs she has?
Surely if they know that, they have access to her personal test reports?

Did I ever claim as much?

I just want to know if the drugs she took had more performance-reducing effects than simply curbing testosterone.

She has an option, she has testicles,

Still waiting for proof on that...

Maybe think about it another way, if a trans man who simply identifies as a woman but is pre op, takes no drugs but has low test for men and has lets say 9nmol/L test levels, very bottom of male normal range(but lower than Semenya) but 3 times higher than the average female athlete, can 'she' compete with the women just because 'she'd' have a monumentally better time competitively against the women than the men?

He was born male and is both biologically and genetically male, so would stay in the male category. If he then takes drugs, presumably for the op, they could alter his performance so would be considered artificial and possibly in the 'doping' category, regardless of which side he/she wanted to compete on.
My argument in Semenya's case is that she has neither done nor taken anything. Her performance is her natural state. If that makes her better than others, that's just the way it goes.
If I had a CPU that, out the box un-OC'd and on air cooling alone, could thrash your LN2 cooled heavily overclocked one, would my result be invalid?

No she wasn't born female she was born intersex but chooses to be a female and compete in athletics against females.

Again, have yet to see anything official proving anything about her gender...

Your modelling analogy isn't vaguely the same

It's about natural ability.

So intersex can choose without restriction while transgender must take meds. to restrict their testosterone levels

Those taking a performance-altering substance, even if for other reasons, are still taking a performance-altering substance, so yes.
Those born with naturally high levels of the same substance shouldn't have to change.
What if a man came along with, say, 70 or 80nmol/L - That's massively high even for a male - Would he also have to curb it?

 

[Mr Jack]

The problem is that, essentially, the entire of women's athletics is a handicap division because no woman can compete as well as the men. Semenya is, although fast for a woman, still utterly no where near the pace of the male athletes but, like most leading athletes, has a genetic advantage over her competitors. The difference is that, unlike most athletes, this genetic advantage comes on an axis that we have chosen to have a handicap division on.

It's a difficult decision, however, I think she should be allowed to compete. She is a woman and there is nowhere else for her to go. People like her are rare, and athletes like her very much so, and there's no prospect of that changing so this isn't going to massively reshape women's athletics. She isn't cheating, she has not sought to gain an advantage, and so she should be allowed to compete.

 

[cheesyboy]

The problem is that, essentially, the entire of women's athletics is a handicap division because no woman can compete as well as the men. Semenya is, although fast for a woman, still utterly no where near the pace of the male athletes but, like most leading athletes, has a genetic advantage over her competitors. The difference is that, unlike most athletes, this genetic advantage comes on an axis that we have chosen to have a handicap division on.

It's a difficult decision, however, I think she should be allowed to compete. She is a woman and there is nowhere else for her to go. People like her are rare, and athletes like her very much so, and there's no prospect of that changing so this isn't going to massively reshape women's athletics. She isn't cheating, she has not sought to gain an advantage, and so she should be allowed to compete.

It's not all that rare. Potentially, the entire podium in the 800m could be intersex, if rumours are to be believed.

 

[adam cool dude]

They should just let everyone juice up but have a limit. It is so boring to watch people being miles and miles off those world records set in the 80's. Semenya was 2 seconds off the record set in the 80's and she has a pair of balls.

Tbh all athletics are race determined no matter how much tallent the individual has. Want to be a long distance runner make sure you were born in East Africa. Want to be a sprinter make sure you are descendent of African slaves. Want to be a fantastic swimmer make sure you are white. Etc.

 

[ps3ud0]

I cant see the IAAF not proving their stance that excessive testosterone provides a performance gain and so return back to enforcing their original ruling.

Having this extended indecision is just making it even harder for all athletes so look forward to that to be cleared up mid-2017.

Personally I think having a separate gender category might be worthwhile looking into as I dont think our traditional binary understanding provides intelligent coverage.

ps3ud0

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

Well Semeneya won and she could clearly have run much much faster competeting easily against the dope up cheat who set the record.

I can only agree with Denise Lewis from The Telegraph:

I don’t want to damn Semenya, but in the cold light of day and when you are talking about performance, it is not fair on her rivals and not a healthy situation for the sport.

I would imagine there were a lot of really peeved woman in that 800mm race, the woman with the testes won, who knew its a whole new world.

 

[Craig1981]

Its a bit of a thorny issue. If it was a man who'd had a sex change operation and now wanted to compete as a woman because that's what he believed he was, then I'd say hell no. Cause that's still a man, no matter how much cosmetic alterations have been done. This isn't that though. This.... woman I guess... was born this way. No choice in the matter. I think she should be allowed to compete, but at the same time I think she should be made to take the drugs that lower her testosterone levels. Even though it is an advantage she was born with, its one that other female athletes can't hope to compete with.

 

[ps3ud0]

Well Semeneya won and she could clearly have run much much faster competeting easily against the dope up cheat who set the record.

I can only agree with Denise Lewis from The Telegraph:



I would imagine there were a lot of really peeved woman in that 800mm race, the woman with the testes won, who knew its a whole new world.

You should see the BBC interview of the GB runner that was in that final - it was very illuminating, particularly the names she dropped

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/olympics/36773271
Starts at 3:19:12 - discussion after that interview is also worth watching

Lynsey Sharp, who finished sixth in the 800m: "I feel a bit disappointed. I had a lot left at the end but I don't know if that means I ran it right or had too much left. I came through strong at the end, that was good, but we shall see."

On Caster Semenya's dominance:

"I have tried to avoid the issue all year. You can see how emotional it all was. We know how each other feels. It is out of our control and how much we rely on people at the top sorting it out. The public can see how difficult it is with the change of rule but all we can do is give it our best.

"I was coming down the home straight, we were not far away and you can see how close it is. That is encouraging. We will work hard and aim to come back even stronger."

This isn't that though. This.... woman I guess... was born this way. No choice in the matter. I think she should be allowed to compete, but at the same time I think she should be made to take the drugs that lower her testosterone levels. Even though it is an advantage she was born with, its one that other female athletes can't hope to compete with.

Chemical castration (for want of a better term, but lets be frank that is what is being suggested/condoned) is just unacceptable to me as a solution to allow her to race, but neither is the option that she cant race because of her situation.

ps3ud0

 

[Vertigo]

Her name is semen ya and she has testicles but inside 'her'. Not sure if it's a joke tbh

Her name is an anagram of "yes, a secret man"

But jokes aside...

No way she should be allowed to compete IMO. The ruling which allowed her to come off the testosterone-reduction medication was based on an appeal that there was insufficient evidence that high testosterone levels in women afforded a competitive advantage. Well her performance on and off the medication would seem to be evidence enough!

As to the argument that it's just how she was born and akin to Bolt's natural talents, give me a break. They don't have a separate category for people "built like Bolt", but they do for men and women. This is effectively allowing someone with significant male characteristics to compete in a female event and is more akin to allowing an able bodied athlete to compete in the paralympics.

 

[cheesyboy]

They should just let everyone juice up but have a limit. It is so boring to watch people being miles and miles off those world records set in the 80's. Semenya was 2 seconds off the record set in the 80's and she has a pair of balls.

Not sure I want to see more of this:

(Current Women's 800m record holder, Jarmila Kratochvílová)

And I don't really want female athletes to have to do that to themselves to compete.

And, frankly, I bet you don't either, after seeing that pic

 

[Skunkworks]

As far as I’m concerned, functioning testicles should mean no competing with women. It’s nothing short of an I win button.