Intersex / transgender etc competing. Thoughts?

[ttaskmaster]

what do you even mean by that argument?

Thought it was plain enough, but hey...

She is a woman. If she has naturally occurring massively high testosterone levels, to the point where she can just about reach the lowest rung of the male category, so what - She is still a woman and should be allowed to compete.
She has not taken any drugs or done anything to be like this. It's just her natural state. To ban her from competition or to artificially restict her performance ability is just plain wrong.
It'd be like telling Robert Wadlow he's too tall to play basketball unless he gets down on his knees.

for example half the world's population naturally has a penis - do they get to compete as females due to that 'natural occurance' too?

Semenya seemingly does not have one, so what'd be the point?

still not seen anything to confirm she's got a womb and ovaries either... that she's intersex is rather obvious

As obvious as all the LadyBoys that sucker men in, yeah?
Until her offcial test and examination results are released, or someone makes an official statement regarding her gender and what bits she does or does not have, that's still an assumption...

 

[Vulcan]

It'd be like telling Robert Wadlow he's too tall to play basketball unless he gets down on his knees.

Bad comparison. There isn't anything that can be done about someone being too tall, there is something that can be done about an athlete who exceeds the testosterone cap, which she does.

Either the cap should be in place for everyone, or it should be removed for everyone.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Again, 'she' looks like a man, has the physique of a man, has the hormone levels of a man. No one is telling 'her' she can't compete, but other people who look, perform and have male levels of testosterone all have to compete with the men, why not her?

She wants to compete with the women because she has a completely unbeatable(except others in her situation) performance advantage. She is nearly unbeateble in the women's division just like any other man would be.

The main differentiating performance factor between classically speaking men and women... is testosterone. Outside of sport if you have too much you find it fair easier to gain muscle and if you don't have enough you generally find it very tough to gain muscle, have issues with tiredness, fatigue, etc. The point of having a separate women's division was so women could compete on a somewhat level playing field by not competing with people with male levels of testosterone. Allowing people with male level test to compete in anything but the men's division is completely against the concept of the women's division.

 

[Dis86]

Thought it was plain enough, but hey...

She is a woman. If she has naturally occurring massively high testosterone levels, to the point where she can just about reach the lowest rung of the male category, so what - She is still a woman and should be allowed to compete.

No she's not. The leaked test results showed that she was not a woman. However because of political correctness and legal challenges the full results have not been officially published.

As it stands because the IAFF is that **** scared of legal challenges if you say you're a women you can basically compete as one.

"The I.A.A.F. spokesman Nick Davies added: “However, if it’s a natural thing, and the athlete has always thought she’s a woman or been a woman, it’s not exactly cheating.”"

"The I.A.A.F. general secretary, Pierre Weiss, said of Semenya, “She is a woman, but maybe not 100 percent.”"

Sorry mate, either she is a woman, or she isn't. It's that simple.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

The wmen she's competing against must be rather annoyed.

I would be too if i trained all my life and managed to become good enough to grab gold silver or bronze, only to have it taken away because someone else deciding they are female carry's more weight than being genetically male, in an event exclusive for women.

 

[ttaskmaster]

I would be too if i trained all my life and managed to become good enough to grab gold silver or bronze, only to have it taken away because someone else deciding they are female carry's more weight than being genetically male, in an event exclusive for women.

But if others have done the same and are just better at it than you, then you're not good enough to grab the medal, are you?

No she's not. The leaked test results showed that she was not a woman.

Do you have a link to this leak?

Sorry mate, either she is a woman, or she isn't. It's that simple.

She's apparently not enough of a man either, though.
You can't even create a third category, because all those special ********** who elected to undergo gender alteration will either want in or want their own categories.

OK, so ban her. Simple as. Career over because you're born funny and we don't like it, or whatever. Citius, Altius, Fortius, but not too much, now, ya hear?

But do we then ban all the others outside the defined range, just because they're too good?
Next week - "Too high an IQ to play Chess"... be sure to tune in.

 

[Skunkworks]

She is very clearly more male than female due to having working balls. Like I said earlier, you might as well let able-bodied athletes "identify as" disable and crush the competition.

 

[dowie]

Thought it was plain enough, but hey...

She is a woman. If she has naturally occurring massively high testosterone levels, to the point where she can just about reach the lowest rung of the male category, so what - She is still a woman and should be allowed to compete.

that isn't plain enough... you're making a statement that isn't really correct - she's intersex so a bit of both really. sure she lives as a woman and socially it is fine to say 'she's a woman' but in competitive sport where we segregate based on gender in order to allow female competitors a chance to compete too letting in someone who isn't fully one or the other negates the whole point of gender segregation in the first place.

She has not taken any drugs or done anything to be like this. It's just her natural state. To ban her from competition or to artificially restict her performance ability is just plain wrong.

men haven't taken any drugs to become men but that isn't a reason to allow them to compete as women - you're just making the same flawed and irrelevant point there by pointing out her condition is 'natural'

men are 'natural', intersex people are 'natural'

if intersex people can compete as women because they're 'natural' then why not men too? The argument doesn't really work.

It'd be like telling Robert Wadlow he's too tall to play basketball unless he gets down on his knees.

no, it is nothing like that at all - we segregated based on gender not height

Semenya seemingly does not have one, so what'd be the point?

the point was to illustrate that your statement was rather meaningless - if we're going to segregate by gender then you need to draw the line somewhere

 

[dowie]

But do we then ban all the others outside the defined range, just because they're too good?
Next week - "Too high an IQ to play Chess"... be sure to tune in.

again you seem confused by the issue given the lack of understanding shown in your analogy

we don't segregate by IQ in chess

we segregate by gender in sport and in some sports by weight class

if we're going to do analogies then how about someone who's 'naturally' prone to putting on weight and has ended up too heavy for the weight class they identify with...

 

[Dis86]

Why is it when someone posts a point you can't refute you turn to absolutely dire analogies (not you Dowie, Ttask).

 

[ttaskmaster]

that isn't plain enough... you're making a statement that isn't really correct - she's intersex so a bit of both really.

Still NO-ONE has managed to post anything that officially proves she has ********, so until then it's just conjecture over a variable degree of mannishness to her looks... yet no so much as Fatima Whitbread.

no, it is nothing like that at all - we segregated based on gender not height

I said like, not the exact same as...

the point was to illustrate that your statement was rather meaningless - if we're going to segregate by gender then you need to draw the line somewhere

Then her career is over, because she does not fit the female range and she is too low down in the male category. Same for a number of other athletes, then.

again you seem confused by the issue given the lack of understanding shown in your analogy

What *is* the issue, then?

we segregate by gender in sport and in some sports by weight class

Then again, that's her career over because she apparently doesn't fit either...

if we're going to do analogies then how about someone who's 'naturally' prone to putting on weight and has ended up too heavy for the weight class they identify with...

Not quite on par, however:
A) Weight naturally fluctuates.
B) Weight can be altered naturally, rather than requiring medications.

Why is it when someone posts a point you can't refute you turn to absolutely dire analogies (not you Dowie, Ttask).

Oh, I'm sorry - What kind of analogies *would* you like, then?

 

[cheesyboy]

Still NO-ONE has managed to post anything that officially proves she has ********, so until then it's just conjecture over a variable degree of mannishness to her looks... yet no so much as Fatima Whitbread.

We don't have proof because no-one is releasing the details. I don't doubt, though, that if they had found her to be 100% female, we'd have had a statement saying as much from the IAAF.

 

[dowie]

Then her career is over, because she does not fit the female range and she is too low down in the male category. Same for a number of other athletes, then.

well yeah... same for any man who runs at a good club level and would dominate the women's race

we segregate women because without segregation there wouldn't be any women Olympic athletes as men have a natural advantage

if an intersex person identifying as a woman* comes along with some of that male natural advantage it defeats the point of segregating by sex/gender

What *is* the issue, then?

gender/sex... not IQ, not height - as has already been pointed out to you we don't segregate by IQ or by height - your analogy was utterly flawed

Oh, I'm sorry - What kind of analogies *would* you like, then?

ones that aren't completely irrelevant might be nice for a start...

 

[Washout]

Basically she was raised as a girl. Her parents, if they knew, could just as easily have raised her as a boy and no-one would have questioned it. Can only imagine, especially when very young it'd be easier to raise her as a girl due to lack of genitalia. Things obviously get complicated as soon as puberty hits...

Just because she was raised as a girl and identifies as a woman does not mean it's ok or fair for her to compete against other women. In order for other women to "step up", as you put it, they'd have to cheat. There's no way around that. Just look at a picture of the woman who holds the world record...

 

[ttaskmaster]

We don't have proof because no-one is releasing the details.

And that's the crux of things.
Most of these arguments are based on the assumption that she is male.

I don't doubt, though, that if they had found her to be 100% female, we'd have had a statement saying as much from the IAAF.

"The IAAF accepts the conclusion of a panel of medical experts that she can compete with immediate effect".
Is that not as much?
Sounds like a typically 'professional-conduct' way of saying as much, without going into detail... presumably because any more would be considered too personal and open to lawsuits?

if an intersex person identifying as a woman* comes along with some of that male natural advantage it defeats the point of segregating by sex/gender

So no intersexers allowed, then, limited to just those who aren't too good, or is it just those who look girly enough?

gender/sex... not IQ, not height - as has already been pointed out to you we don't segregate by IQ or by height - your analogy was utterly flawed

noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies
1/. a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
2/. a correspondence or partial similarity.
3/. a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.

In this case, a naturally developed characteristic the person can do nothing about (without artificial intervention), which is used to discriminate against them by the very field in which said characteristic lends itself toward aptitude.

ones that aren't completely irrelevant might be nice for a start...

So instead of addressing the actual point, you prefer to nitpick semantics and use that to disregard the argument?
Whatever...

Basically she was raised as a girl.

WHY?
Why would they raise her as a girl?
Most likely she has 'girl parts'. To most people, that means she's female.
"A boy without a winkie" and all that...

If you took someone back to your place and, upon dropping their kecks, you discovered they had a winkie - Would you say they were male, or would you honestly get their genetics tested before drawing a conclusion?

In order for other women to "step up", as you put it, they'd have to cheat.

Yeah, poor Lindsay Whasshername... If it weren't for the male pretending to be female, Lindsay would have finished fifth...

There's no way around that. Just look at a picture of the woman who holds the world record...

I've been looking at several of these hyperandro women - Seems to depend entirely on the photo... sometimes they look quite masculine like the Williams sisters, other times not really.
I've met women more mannish than Semenya...

 

[Washout]

WHY?
Why would they raise her as a girl?
Most likely she has 'girl parts'. To most people, that means she's female.
"A boy without a winkie" and all that...

If you took someone back to your place and, upon dropping their kecks, you discovered they had a winkie - Would you say they were male, or would you honestly get their genetics tested before drawing a conclusion?

Possibly they simply didn't know until later? It's such a rare condition that society kind of demands you have a sex so it's also a case of picking one. My point is they could have picked either. Easier on her in the early years as a female but later the more masculine characteristics appeared.
She also doesn't have female sexual reproduction organs so I don't know what point you're trying to make about not having a penis? She does have testicles, albeit internal.

Yeah, poor Lindsay Whasshername... If it weren't for the male pretending to be female, Lindsay would have finished fifth...

Never mentioned her, what about the girls that finished 2nd, 3rd and in particular 4th?

I've been looking at several of these hyperandro women - Seems to depend entirely on the photo... sometimes they look quite masculine like the Williams sisters, other times not really.
I've met women more mannish than Semenya...

The woman who holds the record has more testosterone than Rambo.

Really not sure what point you're trying to make. Is it:
Caster hasn't been proven to have hyperandrogenism and therefore should compete as a woman or
People with hyperandrogenism should be allowed to compete against women?

If the former you're being naive, if the latter then you really think it's fair in a sport segregated based on sex that someone who's almost physically a man, with a mans testosterone levels can compete against women?

Your analogies about height in basketball btw would be valid if they segregated based on height, they don't so its a Chewbacca defence.

 

[The Running Man]

Just because her parents didn't know that she has testes and stuff internally due to not being medically advanced doesn't mean that they made the correct decision to bring her up as a woman.

It probably never occurred to them to check. Until she a 'woman' with a mans physique it was probably not thought about.

Doesn't mean it is right though...

 

[dowie]

So no intersexers allowed, then, limited to just those who aren't too good, or is it just those who look girly enough?

IMO intersex people shouldn't be competing as women. I don't hold the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed.

though again your additional comments about looks etc.. are irrelevant

noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies
1/. a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
2/. a correspondence or partial similarity.
3/. a thing which is comparable to something else in significant respects.

In this case, a naturally developed characteristic the person can do nothing about (without artificial intervention), which is used to discriminate against them by the very field in which said characteristic lends itself toward aptitude.

and again completely irrelevant - we've been through this already though

do you believe a biological male who declares himself to be a woman ought to be able to compete for example? Because he's 'natural' too? Where do you draw the line?

So instead of addressing the actual point, you prefer to nitpick semantics and use that to disregard the argument?
Whatever...

no, nothing to do with semantics - I've highlighted that your analogy simply misses the point - that this concerns sex/gender is pretty fundamental, to try to compare with IQ, height etc.. is fundamentally flawed. That isn't a semantic argument and you're again not able to grasp the point if you believe it is. Sport is segregated on gender (and in some cases weight class) not height or IQ, trying to make analogies using height or IQ is completely flawed and rather stupid.

 

[ttaskmaster]

Caster hasn't been proven to have hyperandrogenism and therefore should compete as a woman or People with hyperandrogenism should be allowed to compete against women?

Bit of both:
She may well have Hyperandrogenism, but that doesn't mean she has the all-important daddy bags hidden away somewhere..
Most of what I've read regarding the causes state:

Polycystic ovary syndrome
Idiopathic hirsutism
Hyperandrogenic insulin-resistant acanthosis nigricans (HAIRAN) syndrome
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (classic and nonclassic)
Cushing’s syndrome
Androgen-secreting tumors (ovarian, adrenal)
Hyperprolactinemia
Hypothyroidism

The most common by far seems to be PCOS... which would mean she would need ovaries in order for them to be polycystic... which means she is female, no?

Whichever way you look at it, every time I look up anything about Semenya, it's always the same blanket statement - 'She has internal testes, no ovaries and no womb'... with not a single one citing any kind of source or reference whatsoever. No-one said, no inside source revealed, no leak of any reports or doctors' file... Just a blank statement that gets repeated.

So yeah - Hyperandroidism doesn't seem to mean Bloke.
I therefore base my opinion around that and think she's just a seriously unlucky woman, both in terms of appearance and especially in how her athletic ability is disregarded in favour of judging her on those looks alone.

IMO intersex people shouldn't be competing as women. I don't hold the opinion that they shouldn't be allowed.

Just that they cannot compete in the body they're born with...

though again your additional comments about looks etc.. are irrelevant

Isn't that how all this started, though?
Semenya looks blokeish and performs as good as a bloke, so they drag her aside and stick a thingy up her wotsit to see if she's made of sugar and spice?

and again completely irrelevant - we've been through this already though

do you believe a biological male who declares himself to be a woman ought to be able to compete for example?

Does he suddenly declare himself a woman, or was he born and raised a woman, living as a woman throughout his entire life, as well as being legally recognised as female in every aspect of that life?

no, nothing to do with semantics - I've highlighted that your analogy simply misses the point - that this concerns sex/gender is pretty fundamental

And the point is that, like her gender, Semenya has done nothing to create or develop any advantage. She has done nothing wrong, nothing unfair, nothing unbecoming.
Why should she change who she is just because her fellow athletes can't keep up?

to try to compare with IQ, height etc.. is fundamentally flawed.

Oh, so if there were a limit on IQ classifications in Chess, there are drugs you can take to bring yourself within that limit, yes? What about altering your height so you're short enough to compete in something?

 

[dowie]

Just that they cannot compete in the body they're born with...

no, again you're deliberately ignoring the point or you're simply not understanding the points being made - I didn't state they shouldn't compete my position is they shouldn't be competing in the female category

Does he suddenly declare himself a woman, or was he born and raised a woman, living as a woman throughout his entire life, as well as being legally recognised as female in every aspect of that life?

You're welcome to state your position on either or both - the question was firstly whether a biological male could compete as a female if she declares herself to be female and secondly where you draw the line?

And the point is that, like her gender, Semenya has done nothing to create or develop any advantage. She has done nothing wrong, nothing unfair, nothing unbecoming.

Straw man - I've not claimed she has done anything wrong

Why should she change who she is just because her fellow athletes can't keep up?

Straw man again, I've not stated she should change who she is

Oh, so if there were a limit on IQ classifications in Chess, there are drugs you can take to bring yourself within that limit, yes? What about altering your height so you're short enough to compete in something?

Why are you carrying on with flawed analogies? Again, for the third time, there are no IQ or height categories in sports.

The discussion is about sex/gender.