Is DirectX 12 Worth the Trouble?

[tommybhoy]

The Division is a good example of DX12 properly implemented, I have to give Ubisoft that, They did a great job, I only hope other devs follow their example on this API

Hopefully, but since Hitman is running DX12 great in game here and not just the BM, @Ayahuasca's pointed it out it's not indicative of ingame on his end, are you getting the same results with Pascal as r7slayer is fine on his 980Ti?

 

[r7slayer]

Hopefully, but since Hitman is running DX12 great in game here and not just the BM, @Ayahuasca's pointed it out it's not indicative of ingame on his end, are you getting the same results with Pascal as r7slayer is fine on his 980Ti?

I will say i do notice more frame per second variation on DX12 but nothing massive just slightly more than what i get with DX11. However ive never noticed any massive drops either. In any game when if do notice a stutter or FPS drop i instantly look at my other monitor with MSI afterburner hardware monitor to see what just happend lol.

But i do get better average FPS over all.

 

[tommybhoy]

It is true that you do get gains on older hardware but this was never the main point of DX12, it was supposed to be a modern API going forwards not looking back.

The halo end of the market-is not the target audience for DX12-it's more the minority and DX12 main goal is to improve cpu/gpu usage it's all encapsulating.

Even though older properly supported hardware/drivers can greatly benefit, I said lesser hardware-igp/apu(including future unreleased more powerful apu's/igp laptops)=lower end hardware which is a higher monetary target for devs/publishers if/when DX12 matures.

If there isn't a gradual DX12 uptake like every other DX before it has-it'll evolve.

To add, I don't see you having bias towards AMD/Nv as you have no problem being negative to either, but enforcing opinion DX12 is crap along the lines of 'because Nv/AMD/£700 cpu's don't see gains' and 'AMD can't compete therefor DX12 is crap because it can't catch Nv's way faster gpu's' as if everyone has multiple halo end gpu's/cpus/rigs to swap and change or splash out on a whim is imo naive.

 

[tommybhoy]

I will say i do notice more frame per second variation on DX12 but nothing massive just slightly more than what i get with DX11. However ive never noticed any massive drops either. In any game when if do notice a stutter or FPS drop i instantly look at my other monitor with MSI afterburner hardware monitor to see what just happend lol.

But i do get better average FPS over all.

Good info, might be helpful for some, DX12 BF1 won't launch for me, it's fine for the majority on 1070's so it's not necessarily a DX12's crap scenario.

(before I get pitchforked-Nv+Dice aware of and working on fixing problems on 1070's)

 

[Nexus18]

The min better FPS for dx 12 on dx 11 looks worse on nvidia though. On AMD systems generally, the max fps will decrease by a bit but the min. and average fps are higher. Personally for myself, the min fps is the most noticeable as overall you are getting a smoother experience with higher min fps.

Nv are getting the ball rolling, wasn't expecting Hitman result as Rottr/DX-MK DX12 only got to parity with DX11, think Nv is going to nail DX12 software/hardware support with Volta.

You might have to wait a while, but despite the negativity, when Volta arrives, get your bookmarks ready when DX12 really arrives.

Does it actually feel smooth in game though? Just when people do get some boost from dx 12 for FPS on nvidia, I see them say it stutters where as dx 11 is smooth, as above regarding division for Ayahuasc and most recently vincent with deus ex and dx 12:

DX12 was horrendously stuttery when I last played the DLC even though the framerate reported in the 70+ range.

DX11 was smooth

Titan X Maxwell.

And then opedsiciple complaining about dx 12 stuttering on his 970 in bf 1 despite fps being higher than dx 11.

Although with the latest "dx 12" driver by nvidia, it will probably be smoother.

Of course, if there are any stutters and people don't notice them and they have gsync, maybe it is down to it hiding the stuttering?

The 10xx series cards definitely seem to be better for dx 12 than the 9xx series though!


Here are my hitman benchmarks (although I'm not a fan of simulated/controlled in game benchmarks as I find they don't give as good of a picture as in actual gameplay):

i.e. During gameplay, I have never seen my min fps drop anywhere near that.


haha, just counting the days down now!

I see you are moving the goalposts now I have pointed out I am not biased, being an owner of 4 RX480s, 4 290Xs and 4 FuryXs.


I must admit you are 50% right on this last point, up until recently 4 way support with my FuryXs and to a lesser extent 480Xs was absolutely terrible with system crashes, black screens, spontaneous reboots and Wattman, what a nightmare with 4 cards. NVidia on the other hand although they don't officially support 4 way SLI have been very reliable. Fortunately the AMD drivers have been a lot better in the last few months.

Almost forgot as to poor mGPU scaling in games these days well that's mostly down to err DX12 lol.

Moved the goal posts... how?

I never said you were nvidia bias besides I thought it had been established that just because people own certain hardware doesn't mean that they still can't be bias towards certain brands.... But I digress...

My main point was that the main reason you hate dx 12 is because you think it has killed mgpu support and that nvidia dropped 3/4 way support with pascal because of dx 12:

Worse still my Maxwell Titans in 4 way SLI using DX11 is a faster gaming setup than anything you can get with Pascal, answer because DX12 has wreaked mGPU support. NVidia can not be bothered with any more than 2 way Pascal support and AMD don't have anything on the market that can justify 4 way support even if they wanted to bother.

If you really want to blame someone for the lack of mgpu support (especially in dx 12) these days then it should be the game developers and AMD/nvidia, it is down to them to them to get it working (more so the developers for dx 12, afaik, all AMD/nvidia have to do is enable the support from their side) but PC are already an afterthought so don't expect things to improve drastically any time soon unless the next consoles get 2+ GPUs....

Deus ex dx 12 works fine for AMD crossfire

https://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/DX12-Multi-GPU-scaling-and-running-Deus-Ex-Mankind-Divided

So who is to blame for the lack of multi-gpu support here? The game developers, Microsoft/dx 12 or/and nvidia?

 

[Overlag]

If Nvidia cards gained loads of performance under DX12, it would be adopted much faster due to their market share. That is not a fanboy remark its just logical that DX12 isn't as important to game developers because it brings very little performance improvement on the market leaders cards? DX12 will become the DX9/11 one day its just taking time, Its only been 2 years!

 

[Kaapstad]

The halo end of the market-is not the target audience for DX12-it's more the minority and DX12 main goal is to improve cpu/gpu usage it's all encapsulating.

Even though older properly supported hardware/drivers can greatly benefit, I said lesser hardware-igp/apu(including future unreleased more powerful apu's/igp laptops)=lower end hardware which is a higher monetary target for devs/publishers if/when DX12 matures.

If there isn't a gradual DX12 uptake like every other DX before it has-it'll evolve.

To add, I don't see you having bias towards AMD/Nv as you have no problem being negative to either, but enforcing opinion DX12 is crap along the lines of 'because Nv/AMD/£700 cpu's don't see gains' and 'AMD can't compete therefor DX12 is crap because it can't catch Nv's way faster gpu's' as if everyone has multiple halo end gpu's/cpus/rigs to swap and change or splash out on a whim is imo naive.

I don't hate DX12, I see as a step backwards if game devs won't use it properly.

As to mGPU if I can get better performance on older hardware using DX11 than I can on DX12 with a couple of 1080 Ti's this is exactly the opposite of what people keep saying about using lesser cards. The lesser cards using DX11 are beating the fastest hardware on the market using DX12. With DX12 I would like to think that you can get a better gaming experience with higher settings than you could 18 months ago with DX11 but unfortunately this is not always possible. Technology is supposed to move forward with performance improvements, not go backwards.

We are now in the laughable situation where you can not build a system than can run every game @2160p with every setting maxed out using the latest hardware, 18 months ago you could

 

[tommybhoy]

The min better FPS for dx 12 on dx 11 looks worse on nvidia though. On AMD systems generally, the max fps will decrease by a bit but the min. and average fps are higher. Personally for myself, the min fps is the most noticeable as overall you are getting a smoother experience with higher min fps.



Does it actually feel smooth in game though? Just when people do get some boost from dx 12 for FPS on nvidia, I see them say it stutters where as dx 11 is smooth, as above regarding division for Ayahuasc and most recently vincent with deus ex and dx 12:

i.e. During gameplay, I have never seen my min fps drop anywhere near that.

Specifically talking Hitman, DX12>DX11, performance has increased on the new driver.

And then opedsiciple complaining about dx 12 stuttering on his 970 in bf 1 despite fps being higher than dx 11.

Although with the latest "dx 12" driver by nvidia, it will probably be smoother.

Of course, if there are any stutters and people don't notice them and they have gsync, maybe it is down to it hiding the stuttering?

The 10xx series cards definitely seem to be better for dx 12 than the 9xx series though!

970 is flawed by design- to their credit Nv got on top of it but they know DX11 inside out better than anyone, they are nowhere near on par with DX12, it just amplifies the 970's hardware limitation.

G-Sync/A-Sync stops tearing and reduces sudden frame variations to create smoother gameplay, but it can only do so much, it might hide slight stutter/hitching, but it can't eradicate it.

 

[Kaapstad]

If Nvidia cards gained loads of performance under DX12, it would be adopted much faster due to their market share. That is not a fanboy remark its just logical that DX12 isn't as important to game developers because it brings very little performance improvement on the market leaders cards? DX12 will become the DX9/11 one day its just taking time, Its only been 2 years!

I don't think game devs really worry that much about fps, all they care about is getting their product running on as much hardware as possible and if this means lowering a few settings so be it.

And yes NVidia have done DX12 no favours by producing hardware that does not make the most of the API.

 

[Nexus18]

Specifically talking Hitman, DX12>DX11, performance has increased on the new driver.

970 is flawed by design- to their credit Nv got on top of it but they know DX11 inside out better than anyone, they are nowhere near on par with DX12, it just amplifies the 970's hardware limitation.

G-Sync/A-Sync stops tearing and reduces sudden frame variations to create smoother gameplay, but it can only do so much, it might hide slight stutter/hitching, but it can't eradicate it.

I know performance has increased but is it actually "smoother" in game than dx 11? As pointed out, the FPS could be higher but it might introduce stuttering. Without gsync this is?

i.e. in some games, most recently that player battleground game, despite me getting 60+ FPS constantly, it is very stuttery and not smooth at all.

 

[tommybhoy]

I don't hate DX12, I see as a step backwards if game devs won't use it properly.

As to mGPU if I can get better performance on older hardware using DX11 than I can on DX12 with a couple of 1080 Ti's this is exactly the opposite of what people keep saying about using lesser cards. The lesser cards using DX11 are beating the fastest hardware on the market using DX12. With DX12 I would like to think that you can get a better gaming experience with higher settings than you could 18 months ago with DX11 but unfortunately this is not always possible. Technology is supposed to move forward with performance improvements, not go backwards.

We are now in the laughable situation where you can not build a system than can run every game @2160p with every setting maxed out using the latest hardware, 18 months ago you could

That isn't DX12 or devs to blame, AMD/Nv's raking in the plaudits and marketing DX12 to the max, yet take your money without financing more devs to implement it in their titles.

 

[Kaapstad]

That isn't DX12 or devs to blame, AMD/Nv's raking in the plaudits and marketing DX12 to the max, yet take your money without financing more devs to implement it in their titles.

I am just stating a fact not dishing out blame.

 

[tommybhoy]

I know performance has increased but is it actually "smoother" in game than dx 11? As pointed out, the FPS could be higher but it might introduce stuttering. Without gsync this is?

i.e. in some games, most recently that player battleground game, despite me getting 60+ FPS constantly, it is very stuttery and not smooth at all.

Dx11 is smooth in the first place with Nv, the performance uplift isn't enough to distinguish a smoother experience but it's at least as smooth as DX11, the end experience is not worse than DX11.

 

[tommybhoy]

I am just stating a fact not dishing out blame.

A lot of the time DX12 is mentioned, it feels like you go all Alf Garnett on us.

 

[~>Dg<~]

i did say few years ago about it and basically as some others have said its been a sales pitch with nothing much come from it.

its dx10 all over again.

 

[Kaapstad]

i did say few years ago about it and basically as some others have said its been a sales pitch with nothing much come from it.

its dx10 all over again.

Plenty has come from it, you can find Win10 based PCs everywhere.

 

[Nexus18]

Dx11 is smooth in the first place with Nv, the performance uplift isn't enough to distinguish a smoother experience but it's at least as smooth as DX11, the end experience is not worse than DX11.

I know dx 11 is

But good to know that has been sorted. If you have any of the other dx 12 games like deus ex etc. it be interesting to hear how they do on your 1070 with the latest driver now.

 

[tommybhoy]

Got ROTTR and Deus Ex, but only benched them on the new driver, DX11/12 is ~same fps now, last time I tried(a while ago) DX12 was slower, how that interprets into the actual game idk, but I felt Deus Ex played smoother on lower fps on DX12 a while back(a later patch could have changed things), but I hadn't put a lot of hours into it, only played it over a few nights.

 

[Nexus18]

Cool

 

[VincentHanna]

By the way, I have a G-Sync monitor and it did not solve the stuttering in DX12 when playing Deus Ex

Something was squiffy with Nvidia and DX12 under Maxwell 2