IS MIRACLE/FAIITH HEALING POSSIBLE??

[AJUK]

There's no onus on anyone to prove anything.

Unless you can provide a full understanding of everything (something which current scientific methods and processes certainly don't, hence why theories are continually being revised) then you have no basis to any of your statements other than your own faith in your view... Kinda familiar?

What are you on about?

 

[Arcade Fire]

He saying that whilst people who assert that faith healing is real cannot prove that they're right, science cannot (and does not claim to be able to) prove that it's not real.

 

[WantoN]

I believe in the power of, well faith. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not religious, but if a person truly believes they are getting better, they probably will. It's frightening what more you can achieve when you believe the impossible.

Ant

 

[thebrasso]

I'm a spiritualist...and I've seen proof of healing. All a healer does is channels energy through themselves. The way to think of it is there are other realms beyond us, a higher power in effect. Certain people can tap into this energy and channel it into others who need it.

Those who have had hands on healing recall a feeling of relaxation, and also many talk of a warmth or even heat. My experience was of heat where the hands were being applied, and on two occasions drifting into the deepest sleep you can imagine where I looked down on myself for a few seconds. An outer body experience I guess.

All I'd say to anybody is don't immediately discount things that can't be explained by science. Allow your mind to think beyond what you know and just take things as they come. If you get something from it all well and good..just don't discount it because of the idiots who stand in a hall pretending to be mediums saying "is there somebody called John in the room".

Here is an example I know of. A friend of my nan's died (my nan is a spiritualist healer). This woman was wired up to all sorts of machines in the hospital and was suffering multiple organ failure. She had some healing from my nan and another woman and for the last 24 hours didn't ask for any morphine or anything to control the pain. Later she had two heart attacks successively and died quickly...how could somebody withstand that without any outward signs of distress?

 

[cleanbluesky]

Its possible - Christian reckons its Jesus working through them, and that anything other is the work of the Devil.

Personally I think people can heal if they just understand it, just look at Reiki

I don't think it would be possible to regrow a limb here and there, for many reaons... also - the healing has to be done with the permission of the person you are healing. Bear in mind that the attitude of the person who needs healing can often be what brought any illness on in the first place, and it is something that can block any effective healing...

 

[Dolph]

What are you on about?

Science is about predominately about prediction of outputs based on inputs, cause and effect. That's where all the models and theories come in, to enable us to try and work out what would happen if we use certain inputs in a system, what outputs we would actually get.

Such a system relies firstly on consistant cause and effect. If the same inputs will not always result in the same output, you can't study it scientificially. Secondly the way a scientific model is constructed is by making lots of measurements, then working out the simplest means to link those two data sets together. If you have several explainations, you take the simplest one with the least variables for ease of modelling. It does not imply that this model is reality, simply that it correctly links the input and output information.

Given that, how can you determine whether or not something without a specific cause and effect relationship exists?

The answer is that it can't.

Now, if you want to claim otherwise, you're of course free to do so. It would be a wonderful demonstration of a faith based belief though, practically religious.

 

[thebrasso]

Thats all I'd say to people, is don't immediately discount it. Just because science can't explain it..so what? Science can't explain a lot of things..more so in the past.

 

[WantoN]

Thats all I'd say to people, is don't immediately discount it. Just because science can't explain it..so what? Science can't explain a lot of things..more so in the past.

Then by your own admission the mediums who ask "is there a John in the room?" have potential power too? You can't just poopoo one form of spirituality and stalwortly defend another.

Ant

 

[Dolph]

Then by your own admission the mediums who ask "is there a John in the room?" have potential power too? You can't just poopoo one form of spirituality and stalwortly defend another.

Ant

Yes you can.

The kind of pyschic that practices cold reading is fairly easy to pick up on and offer alternative solutions for other than potential power.

Looking at Spirituality objectively is part of the problem, and it should be something that looks at things that actually cannot be explained by reasonable alternatives.

Personally I will only look for a supernatural or paranormal explaination after the alternatives have been exhausted, not jump to conclusions. However I won't go and try and stretch science to somewhere it isn't and doesn't claim to be in the process, nor will I accept huge convaluted arguments relying on multiple high improbability chance events as an explaination.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Personally I will only look for a supernatural or paranormal explaination after the alternatives have been exhausted, not jump to conclusions. However I won't go and try and stretch science to somewhere it isn't and doesn't claim to be in the process, nor will I accept huge convaluted arguments relying on multiple high improbability chance events as an explaination.

Are you suggesting that spirituality and science exist seperately and cannot overlap?

 

[Dolph]

Are you suggesting that spirituality and science exist seperately and cannot overlap?

No, I'm suggesting they can be complimentary to each other, as I'm sure you're aware.

I'm also suggesting that someone who insists the explaination has to come from one side or the other is most likely missing something.

Watching people on this forum trying to come up with explainations for some of the events in my old house was enough to firmly convince me of that.... I think the stealth burglar who broke in, removed all the cables from my router and left while I was sat in the next room, leaving no damage and making no sound was the best one.....

 

[ethan]

By definition a miracle is an event that breaks a law or number of laws of physics- for example bringing somebody back from the dead after a certain amount of time without the aid of mechanical and scientific apparatus.

In response 2 another point- it has also been found that humans, at a very early stage in the foetul development, do possess the ability 2 grow back limbs or appendages, this is where some of the ideas concerning stem cell treatment is derived

 

[WantoN]

I'm sorry Dolph, are you trying to tell me that because there are many other explanations, and many frauds, in the world of mediums, that it's unlikely they exist? Spiritual healing is as likely down to the person themselves as the healer, look at the way a placebo works, and how, if someone is actively fighting a desease, they more often than not, deal with it better, and survive longer, because of their will alone.


Ant

 

[Dolph]

I'm sorry Dolph, are you trying to tell me that because there are many other explanations, and many frauds, in the world of mediums, that it's unlikely they exist? Spiritual healing is as likely down to the person themselves as the healer, look at the way a placebo works, and how, if someone is actively fighting a desease, they more often than not, deal with it better, and survive longer, because of their will alone.


Ant

No, with things like Mediums I'd judge them on an individual basis. Just because there are many frauds doesn't mean they all are, and just because some may be genuine doesn't mean they should all be treated as such.

With regards to your comments about spiritual healing, I'd be inclined to agree with you that it could be equally down to the patient as the healer. That doesn't change the fact that there is something going on that isn't fully understood and can't be easily replicated or motivated in alternative patients. Even if all a faith healer does is give someone faith in themselves and they get better, that's still something worth exploring if the success rate is good enough.

You see the same thing with various alternative therapies and stuff like that, if they seem to have a positive effect, then that should be investigated. I'm not dismissing any explaination but I don't embrace many either (unless I've had genuine experience with them).

 

[cleanbluesky]

By definition a miracle is an event that breaks a law or number of laws of physics- for example bringing somebody back from the dead after a certain amount of time without the aid of mechanical and scientific apparatus.

A miracle can be considered to be something that break the rules of expectations rather than something that is impossble - otherwise it wouldn't have happened. How possible it was considered can also constitute how much of a 'miracle' it was...

Aleister Crowley gave a good definition of magick, which is probably what can be considered to be the force used in a lot of spiritual matters...

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will" a definition which can cover things as mundane as changing the TV channel with the remote all the way up to various 'preternatural' insights

 

[thebrasso]

Then by your own admission the mediums who ask "is there a John in the room?" have potential power too? You can't just poopoo one form of spirituality and stalwortly defend another.

Ant

Yes, because cold reading will require you to give them information. A real medium will be able to tell you things, and ask you to say if you can or can't accept it. You will soon know if they are talking rubbish.

 

[ethan]

A miracle can be considered to be something that break the rules of expectations rather than something that is impossble - otherwise it wouldn't have happened. How possible it was considered can also constitute how much of a 'miracle' it was...

Aleister Crowley gave a good definition of magick, which is probably what can be considered to be the force used in a lot of spiritual matters...

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will" a definition which can cover things as mundane as changing the TV channel with the remote all the way up to various 'preternatural' insights

No sorry! Lots of things do break the rules of expections but are not called or classed as Miracles In science this happens all the time. The definition you have given in my opinion is a little too weak.
Another definition of a miracle would be the parting of the red sea by sheer mental albeit spiritual force. Also an act of Transmogrification,i.e, feeding 5000 with only a handful of fish. These actions would normally be considered impossible through ordinary means.

 

[cleanbluesky]

No sorry! Lots of things do break the rules of expections but are not called or classed as Miracles In science this happens all the time. The definition you have given in my opinion is a little too weak.

Of course, it has to be a POSITIVE thing that break the rules of expectations and when I mean expectations, I mean expectation of what is POSSSIBLE rather than what is actually physcially possible...

 

[SexyGreyFox]

From the Dead Sea Scrolls they are now finding out that -
Making the blind see
Changing water into wine
Raising the dead
are all sayings which mean that unbelievers have been converted.

Back in Nigeria there were miracle healers everywhere in little corrugated huts and my Dad took loads of pictures of their boards with what they could do on them. I always sniggered at the 'Cures sickness of the penis' ones.

Miracle healings and cures do happen but I'm sure its a placebo effect and the person cures themselves because they believe it.

 

[Jokester]

There was an interesting experiment done in Aberdeen a year or two ago, a group of patients were split into two groups, one treated by a faith healer, the other by a fake healer. Both groups reported improvements in their various ailments and there was no statistical difference in effectiveness of both healers.

Interestingly, when a third group was tested with both healers, they had the best improvement, presumably because they knew they were getting a faith healer.

Conclusion:- placebos have a powerful effect on the mind.

Jokester