I did say not to borrow it...
Is the end of Battery EVs coming?
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I did say not to borrow it...
People complaining about the cost of public EV charging and hanging their hopes on hydrogen being ‘the future’
In California Shell has just closed all of the hydrogen filing stations. I looked up the cost of hydrogen and it was $36 per KG
A Toyota Mirai takes 5.6kg of hydrogen to fill ($201) for a range of up to 400 miles.
So that’s about $0.50 ¢ a mile !
Hydrogen might be an option in the (long) future, but it will be an expensive one!
In California Shell has just closed all of the hydrogen filing stations. I looked up the cost of hydrogen and it was $36 per KG
A Toyota Mirai takes 5.6kg of hydrogen to fill ($201) for a range of up to 400 miles.
So that’s about $0.50 ¢ a mile !
Hydrogen might be an option in the (long) future, but it will be an expensive one!
Soldato
California isn't representative of anywhere else.
Soldato
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a.very quick Google shows H2 is about £13 a kg in the UK. that is still a lot more than electric.
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Soldato
Yeah it’s almost the pioneers of early tech adopters…
Soldato
That’s grey h2 I guess?
No its not, which makes the point they are closing Hydrogen stations even more potent.
California early adopted and likely has the higest representation of hydrogen vehicles in domestic use. Shell closing stations is for a reason.
Most people think refuelling a hydrogen car is like refuelling a normal petrol car. It isn't.
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Soldato
No it makes it less potent. Evs are easier to choose if your infrastructure is good.
Exactly Sin Chase
- there are over 17,000 pure hydrogen vehicles and 53 hydrogen filling stations in California.The state has been supporting it for over a decade, with $300+ million of funding provided for just the stations.
Shell pulled out despite another $40 million being offered to continue.
In California The hydrogen filling station infrastructure is good. So, poor infrastructure is not the reason for it’s failure - that’s due to high cost of the fuel and building the stations.
Yep - Hydrogen used in California is over 60% green.
In the UK almost all of it is grey, so produced using natural gas, or methane. Hence the cheaper price.
My point - if hydrogen for ‘light duty’ (personal) transport hasn’t worked in California, having been in operation for over 10 years, then it’s very unlikely to work anywhere.else.
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From what I can see the currently “known” reason for Shell closing their stations is due to problems with supply and a lawsuit relating to the design of the fuel station themselves, other reasons may exist but I can’t find them.
www.hydrogeninsight.com
insideevs.com
Shell permanently closes all of its hydrogen refuelling stations for cars in California
Oil major cites ‘supply complications and other external market factors’ in decision to exit market for light-duty H2 vehicles in the US
www.hydrogeninsight.com
Shell Is Immediately Closing All Of Its California Hydrogen Stations
The oil giant is one of the big players in hydrogen globally, but even it can't make its operations work here. All seven of its California stations will close immediately.
insideevs.com
yes - with biden's subsidy of hydrogen in inflation act (.. like older state subsidies of tesla ?) thought hydrogen was back on the menu their
similarly uk plan for hydrogen distribution backbone for hgv's predominately, or shell installation in netherlands of biggest worldwide electrolysers to use up all that off peak wind farm juice
(better return than selling electricity to domestic users)
The electrolysis and 3x loss in efficiency through the energy flow, might be expensive, but you can't store electricity in old gas wells or cheaply, for long term (eg winter) energy shifting.
similarly uk plan for hydrogen distribution backbone for hgv's predominately, or shell installation in netherlands of biggest worldwide electrolysers to use up all that off peak wind farm juice
(better return than selling electricity to domestic users)
The electrolysis and 3x loss in efficiency through the energy flow, might be expensive, but you can't store electricity in old gas wells or cheaply, for long term (eg winter) energy shifting.
The price of producing Hydrogen will drop significantly with more uptake/use of it. I think EVs have a place but the infrastructure in the UK is terrible. There is literally no power, the cabling is old, the supply is far below what is needed.
There is some interesting home hydrogen system coupled with solar and hydrogen storage for winter when solar production is low. My system is producing 20w at the moment, so nothing! That said, it did nearly 10kwh the on Monday when it was sunny all day so not bad for a small system in Feb!
There is some interesting home hydrogen system coupled with solar and hydrogen storage for winter when solar production is low. My system is producing 20w at the moment, so nothing! That said, it did nearly 10kwh the on Monday when it was sunny all day so not bad for a small system in Feb!
Soldato
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there is already a huge use of H2.... and that is the problem with it going in cars. until we have so much spare green energy that we literally cant use all of it then making H2 to burn in cars would be bordering on criminally inefficient imo.
its used (or can be used) in farming or steel and even just for that its rarely green. Sure, once its made purely with renewables then they can do what they want with it, but as long as it is made with electricity from gas or coal its insane imo and probably worse than using petrol overall (though admittedly does have the advantage of not adding to dirty air in cities).
add to that unless something improves, with time to charge cars coming down, it may not even be quicker to fill a car with H2 than it is to rapid charge a battery.
iirc it takes almost 10mins to fill a mirai , but that isnt all, with the current tech you can only fill a handful of cars at a H2 pump before that has to recharge (i cant remember the exact mechanism of why it cant run constantly one car after the other..... but right now it cant)
its used (or can be used) in farming or steel and even just for that its rarely green. Sure, once its made purely with renewables then they can do what they want with it, but as long as it is made with electricity from gas or coal its insane imo and probably worse than using petrol overall (though admittedly does have the advantage of not adding to dirty air in cities).
add to that unless something improves, with time to charge cars coming down, it may not even be quicker to fill a car with H2 than it is to rapid charge a battery.
iirc it takes almost 10mins to fill a mirai , but that isnt all, with the current tech you can only fill a handful of cars at a H2 pump before that has to recharge (i cant remember the exact mechanism of why it cant run constantly one car after the other..... but right now it cant)
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It may have hit a sibling clock in the USA.
ANALYSIS | It is now almost 14 times more expensive to drive a Toyota hydrogen car in California than a comparable Tesla EV | Hydrogen Insight
The state’s largest H2 fuel supplier has hiked its pump price to $36 per kg across all 37 of its filling stations
Soldato
The hydrogen hopefuls also seem to be missing a big point. Why would anyone in their right mind swap their EV for a hydrogen powered car?
99% of the time, I can refuel my EV so cheaply it's insignificant to my monthly outgoings. Why would I replace that with the expense and inconvenience of having to pay to fill a car up with fuel again.
99% of the time, I can refuel my EV so cheaply it's insignificant to my monthly outgoings. Why would I replace that with the expense and inconvenience of having to pay to fill a car up with fuel again.
Is that statement related to the power requirements today or the future?, because obviously the power network and supply will [is] improve to meet the needs in the future [as you also said, Hydrogen will improve/reduce in price]
Exactly - no one with an EV and home charging is going to pay more, for the increased inconvenience of hydrogen
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Soldato
Car ownership in the future will likely look very different from how it is today. Automated driverless cars that you order as and when you need them from your phone. If you consider that most cars are parked up for 99% of their lives, it's a very wasteful purchase.
I would imagine that EV fleets wouldn't work for this sort of model, without some serious infrastructure cleverness (I'd like to imagine cars recharging overnight via renewables, giving back to the grid in times of demand).
I would imagine that EV fleets wouldn't work for this sort of model, without some serious infrastructure cleverness (I'd like to imagine cars recharging overnight via renewables, giving back to the grid in times of demand).
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Both really. It's not too dissimilar to the rail networks that were closed down by Beeching. Whenever we go for a power connection at work, it's not uncommon to find the cabling shown on their plans either doesn't actually exist or isn't what they thought/think it is and ultimately not suitable. My biggest quote so far has been about £265k for a single power connection yet right by the site was a cable but they've condemned it and apparently can't do anything about that...
Remember it is not just vehicles they apparently want to electrify, they want all heating to be electric and remove gas, so the amount of power needed is apparently going to need to be about 80% more than we have today.
I agree that today using a hydrogen car is a mistake... but I still think and hope hydrogen will be the future...
Ofc I can be wrong, as unfortunately I can't predict the future
