Is the end of Battery EVs coming?

[bigmike20vt]

Car ownership in the future will likely look very different from how it is today. Automated driverless cars that you order as and when you need them from your phone. If you consider that most cars are parked up for 99% of their lives, it's a very wasteful purchase.

I would imagine that EV fleets wouldn't work for this sort of model, without some serious infrastructure cleverness (I'd like to imagine cars recharging overnight via renewables, giving back to the grid in times of demand).

i agree with your 1st paragraph and certainly hope that is the future... am not sure why that would not work for EVs however, indeed i would say it would be easier to work for evs, where when not in use or when the battery gets to a certain level the car takes itsself to a charging node and takes itself out of service for an hr or so. Because all the cars would be linked to each other they would always know where the available nodes were and could book one when travelling to it.

 

[alex24]

I don’t understand the OP and have missed some pages of debate but as far as I can see, investment in BEV is still strong and most manufacturers have long term plans. There has been some recent softening of demand but R&D is not significantly going into much other than BEV.

From a scientific perspective, efficiency of BEV is irrefutable and therefore this should be underpinned in the economics of fuel/energy generation and distribution. The problem at the moment is battery technology. Energy density needs to increase and more importantly perhaps weight needs to reduce for further efficiency. That said, BEV technology now is good enough for the vast majority of car and small vehicle journeys, so as long as the economics stack up, it’s a viable complete replacement if we can also embrace investment in infrastructure and more multi-modal and public transport in the mix. Arguably all needed for a sustainable future.

I don’t get H2 as an approach other than when batteries are not possible. It’s not more economical. It’s difficult to store and transport and is quite explosive whilst still being less energy dense than fossil fuels. Better off investing in battery R&D and infrastructure or sweating the assets with fossil fuels until electric replacements are viable.

I realise many like to be able to go 500 miles in their diesel Audi and change is difficult but purely objectively it’s not a big deal. As a car enthusiast though, I would like to see more excitement and innovation in the BEV sector. Main OEMs are just flying out boring heavy SUVs…

 

[bigmike20vt]

, I would like to see more excitement and innovation in the BEV sector. Main OEMs are just flying out boring heavy SUVs…

I agree with all your points.... regarding this last bit, personally i am really looking forward to the renault 5. i hope it is a proper little hot hatch, and if it has a genuine real world 150 miles of range could be an absolute winner as a 2nd family car or even a main car for a single person or couple.

 

[lordrobs]

Hydrogen will start to make a lot more sense if / when we get to a state where we have an abundance of renewable energy. Rather than paying a bunch of people on a flexible tariff to wash their smalls they can divert the excess to Hydrogen production.

I think it certainly has a place in the energy mix going forwards.

 

[alex24]

Hydrogen will start to make a lot more sense if / when we get to a state where we have an abundance of renewable energy. Rather than paying a bunch of people of a flexible tariff to wash their smalls they can divert the excess to Hydrogen production.

I think it certainly has a place in the energy mix going forwards.

What for though? Out of curiosity. You may be right but I’d guess it’s niche from a transport PoV. H2 obviously has lots of other uses which are important I’m sure.

If we are over-producing renewable energy you could direct this to electrolysis of water to generate H2 but that may mean supply is unpredictable for the amounts required for transport. You still have the logistics challenges. You’re still burning something which I guess (but don’t have evidence to hand) is not completely clean for air quality.

Equally you could instead use the production to charge a nationwide network of batteries (most likely in cars as lithium based at first but other options exist). Then pull that back to the grid as needed as I think was already mentioned.

 

[lordrobs]

I agree with all your points.... regarding this last bit, personally i am really looking forward to the renault 5. i hope it is a proper little hot hatch, and if it has a genuine real world 150 miles of range could be an absolute winner as a 2nd family car or even a main car for a single person or couple.

I hope I'm wrong but I can see it being a benign generic hatch back that has all the edge knocked off it between concept and production. The Honda-E looked so cool as a concept and what rolled out was, from a looks perspective if nothing else, a little lump of 'meh'.

My hopes are with Mazda for a drivers EV for the masses. Not a hot hatch per-se but just an old fashioned quick enough but nice handling hatch back like the current Mazda 3 or older Ford Focus. I do wonder if after getting a slating for range on the MX-30 whether they are waiting it out for a bit of a phase shift on battery density so they can keep their 'gram strategy' approach to engineering a car.

 

[Simon]

The hydrogen hopefuls also seem to be missing a big point. Why would anyone in their right mind swap their EV for a hydrogen powered car?

99% of the time, I can refuel my EV so cheaply it's insignificant to my monthly outgoings. Why would I replace that with the expense and inconvenience of having to pay to fill a car up with fuel again.

Not everyone can charge at home…

 

[SDK^]

There will be an abundance of green energy into the near future - there is an additional 20+ GW of Wind generation with applications to connect to the Grid, adding this to the current overnight surplus wind power makes over 40+GW - that's a lot of EV charging capacity

 

[bigmike20vt]

Not everyone can charge at home…

very true...... but how many can fill with H2 at home?
with rapid battery charging rate constantly increasing, 20 mins will give a good chunk of range in many fast charging EVs.... its not that much slower than filling a car with H2.

(and AFAIK no one has stated it yet so maybe i am putting the cart before the horse here) but before anyone states that H2 is safer than battery because look at how many escooters set on fire................ then i could be just as inaccurate and say H2 is really dangerous, remember the Hindenburg ) - yes i am (mostly) joking

 

[SKILL]

There will be an abundance of green energy into the near future - there is an additional 20+ GW of Wind generation with applications to connect to the Grid, adding this to the current overnight surplus wind power makes over 40+GW - that's a lot of EV charging capacity

Or a lot of green hydrogen generation capacity...

 

[Nasher]

I agree with all your points.... regarding this last bit, personally i am really looking forward to the renault 5. i hope it is a proper little hot hatch, and if it has a genuine real world 150 miles of range could be an absolute winner as a 2nd family car or even a main car for a single person or couple.

150 miles (probably under 100 in the real world, especially in winter) is pathetic, but it's the only way to keep it relatively light.

I don't think it will sell as a second, fun/hobby car because it's an EV and expensive. Because of that I dont think it's going to be very successful sadly.

 

[bigmike20vt]

150 miles (probably under 100 in the real world, especially in winter) is pathetic, but it's the only way to keep it relatively light.

I don't think it will sell as a second, fun/hobby car because it's an EV and expensive. Because of that I dont think it's going to be very successful sadly.

price is key.... if they do a honda E and aim at pushing 30k then they may as well not bother.

if its closer the the citroen e-C3 (which claims 200 miles range - which is where i get 150 miles actual genuine winter range from) for £22 - £23k then i think it could do well - and absolutely would be on my radar once they hit 3 years old 40k miles on the clock.

unless its between £10k - £15k brand new then the days of any new EV having a worst case range of under 100 miles needs to be over imo (and I think it is).

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I agree that today using a hydrogen car is a mistake... but I still think and hope hydrogen will be the future...

Why? A hydrogen car is just an EV with an expensive to replenish liquid battery. If you think you'll miss the noise of an 'engine', or a pops and bangs map - hydrogen isn't the answer.

It'll just be another expensive fuel that can be taxed like petrol and diesel is.

I understand the desire for something different for people who can't charge at home. Unfortunately, with the coming automotive revolution, I don't see how they're ever not going to be significantly worse off than people who can.

 

[Simon]

very true...... but how many can fill with H2 at home?
with rapid battery charging rate constantly increasing, 20 mins will give a good chunk of range in many fast charging EVs.... its not that much slower than filling a car with H2.

(and AFAIK no one has stated it yet so maybe i am putting the cart before the horse here) but before anyone states that H2 is safer than battery because look at how many escooters set on fire................ then i could be just as inaccurate and say H2 is really dangerous, remember the Hindenburg ) - yes i am (mostly) joking

One is much easier to put out though and hydrogen fires tend to go up anyway. The hindenburg actually landed and the ones who jumped out were the ones who died.

Anyway if anyone knew the future they wouldn’t be sat here talking about it. They would be too busy ordering superyachts

 

[Simon]

Why? A hydrogen car is just an EV with an expensive to replenish liquid battery. If you think you'll miss the noise of an 'engine', or a pops and bangs map - hydrogen isn't the answer.

It'll just be another expensive fuel that can be taxed like petrol and diesel is.

I understand the desire for something different for people who can't charge at home. Unfortunately, with the coming automotive revolution, I don't see how they're ever not going to be significantly worse off than people who can.

You ignore Hydrogen ICE.

 

[Simon]

There will be an abundance of green energy into the near future - there is an additional 20+ GW of Wind generation with applications to connect to the Grid, adding this to the current overnight surplus wind power makes over 40+GW - that's a lot of EV charging capacity

And a lot of energy to store where hydrogen is great to turn electricity into something to burn or easily transport without tones of copper cable or batteries. We get loads of energy at night where people are being paid to use it as we can’t store.

Imagine a remote location EV charger running off piped hydrogen into a fuel cell for example

 

[SDK^]

And a lot of energy to store where hydrogen is great to turn electricity into something to burn or easily transport without tones of copper cable or batteries. We get loads of energy at night where people are being paid to use it as we can’t store.

Imagine a remote location EV charger running off piped hydrogen into a fuel cell for example

Yes, that was my point too

 

[Hawk Tuah]

You ignore Hydrogen ICE.

So does every mainstream car manufacturer.

 

[r22snapper]

Not everyone can charge at home…

Nobody can buy hydrogen

 

[Drangueos]

Why? A hydrogen car is just an EV with an expensive to replenish liquid battery. If you think you'll miss the noise of an 'engine', or a pops and bangs map - hydrogen isn't the answer.

It'll just be another expensive fuel that can be taxed like petrol and diesel is.

I understand the desire for something different for people who can't charge at home. Unfortunately, with the coming automotive revolution, I don't see how they're ever not going to be significantly worse off than people who can.

We will not be here to see, but the long term impact on the planet is much higher with BEVs than Hydrogen EVs.

Also you can have internal combustion Hydrogen engines.

You know that electric cars are almost as old as internal combustion cars right? but they didn't take off in the 1900s, one of the reasons was politics...

It is hard to tell what is going to happen, too many politics and companies control the world... and in fact that is what is going to decide what is going to happen.

It is really expensive and takes a lot of energy to extract hydrogen, but on the other hand it will take a LOT of energy if everybody goes electric (Are we ready for this?)... not only that, a lot of stuff is moving to electric... heaters, ovens etc etc, MAYBE, just MAYBE one day we will get to a point where is cheaper and easier to extract hydrogen... Also we will never run out of Hydrogen...