Is the end of Battery EVs coming?

[bigmike20vt]

I'll give you an interesting example of why ICE is more convenient.

I'm currently on holiday in Romania (with a hire car), and we travelled cross-country to visit some friends (5hr+ drive).

I had the freedom to do a quick stop for petrol, and then drive another 30mins to another petrol/service station that served better food.


If I was in an EV - I would have been forced waste time, by waiting at the first station to charge the car (let's say 30+mins). That would have either added 30mins to my overall journey, or forced me to eat at the crappier service station to avoid that 2nd stop for food.


These are the real world examples of why EV charging is not ideal

i do not doubt you can find examples of where an ice can be more convenient.... just as you can find examples where an EV is more convenient (how many times have you gone to bed and woke with your ICE car refueled without doing anything.... sometimes for free!).

how many ice cars can run your camping gear when out and about (unless you run the engine i support and maybe run off the 12v but that is not really practical) , or even run some of your house stuff if there is a power cut (not all EVs can do this but some can if you buy intelligently if you know this is an important feature).

EVs are not perfect.... they are a WIP imo (and public charging is often eye wateringly expensive if you have to rely on it) so i guess its a good job then that 1) the infrastructure is getting better by the day, the EVs themselves get better every generation.......... and most importantly, no one is stopping anyone from sticking with their ICE cars for now if they really do not work for them.

but to suggest the end of EVs is coming because they are not perfect and that it is possible to find use cases where they are not quite as good as an ICE is proper ******** imo - not accusing rypt of this btw - .

 

[rypt]

no one is stopping anyone from sticking with their ICE cars for now if they really do not work for them.

Pretty sure ICE is taxed higher than EV by the Gov.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Pretty sure ICE is taxed higher than EV by the Gov.

yep and it should be imo. (IF the government is serious about reducing our CO2 footprint) - its only newish ICE cars tho.

our recently departed (written off, we didnt choose to get rid) pug 308 diesel still had £35 a year car tax......... and unlike our ipace AFAIK wasnt going to get retrospectively hit with the tax hammer in 2025

btw i *wish* i could get those tax dodging sweet company car deals. I cant however. i do think they are pretty lobsided but it is what it is.

 

[adam cool dude]

i do not doubt you can find examples of where an ice can be more convenient.... just as you can find examples where an EV is more convenient (how many times have you gone to bed and woke with your ICE car refueled without doing anything.... sometimes for free!).

how many ice cars can run your camping gear when out and about (unless you run the engine i support and maybe run off the 12v but that is not really practical) , or even run some of your house stuff if there is a power cut (not all EVs can do this but some can if you buy intelligently if you know this is an important feature).

EVs are not perfect.... they are a WIP imo (and public charging is often eye wateringly expensive if you have to rely on it) so i guess its a good job then that 1) the infrastructure is getting better by the day, the EVs themselves get better every generation.......... and most importantly, no one is stopping anyone from sticking with their ICE cars for now if they really do not work for them.

but to suggest the end of EVs is coming because they are not perfect and that it is possible to find use cases where they are not quite as good as an ICE is proper ******** imo - not accusing rypt of this btw - .

The conveniences of the ICE far outweigh the conveniences of the EV though. That is why zero people are buying them unless they have incentives and no one is shifting them second hand because of zero warranty. The market pretty much speaks for itself at the moment

The only reason EV's are even a thing is because of tax breaks and cost saving. No one would touch them otherwise. If you buy private new there is 0 cost saving due to depreciation so they only benefit the few. When there is 0 cost saving then there is literally zero point in buying an EV over ICE as it is just so much more convenient.

 

[bigmike20vt]

The conveniences of the ICE far outweigh the conveniences of the EV though. That is why zero people are buying them unless they have incentives and no one is shifting them second hand because of zero warranty. The market pretty much speaks for itself at the moment

The only reason EV's are even a thing is because of tax breaks and cost saving. No one would touch them otherwise. If you buy private new there is 0 cost saving due to depreciation so they only benefit the few. When there is 0 cost saving then there is literally zero point in buying an EV over ICE as it is just so much more convenient.

the moment you make claims like "no one" you kind of shoot yourself in the foot.

i bought both our EVs 2nd hand, i get no tax breaks at all out of one of them, and the other i will get 2 years of free road tax and that is it so not really a deal breaker (I even had to pay luxury car tax on our other one - something i didnt budget for when we bought it!)

you believe there is zero point of EVs, you are entitled to that view, but it isnt shared by many.

one of the arguments againt EVs were there are no affordable EVs 2nd hand.
another one is they depreciate too much.

that sounds to me like proper goal post moving imo. My EV has depreciated a lot and truth be told with captain hindsite glasses i would have waited 6 months before buying my car. (I would still buy it, its brilliant imo but i would just have held off and saved about £9k)

but right now there are some seriously good deals to be had in the 2nd hand car market for EVs that those who were moaning a year or 2 now should be championing not using it as a reason to spread more FUD imo.

I dont have a crystal ball so may be wrong but just by the nature of what is in them, imo 2nd hand prices cant continue to tank like they have in the last 6 months. its been a perfect storm imo of a genuine correction, media FUD and the insurance scandal which has meant its a good time to bag a bargain.

edit and also like jonnycoupe said which i didnt think about, a huge batch of ex lease cars are now flooding the market meaning there is lots of supply.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Rypt. Sounds more like luck than judgement to me and 30mins break on a trip like that? Good to rest. It’s fringe anyway, barely “real world”

Adam,
The depreciation is down the to success of leases that are now ending, noting more or less and it’s a move feast for the narrative, last year we had they were too expensive to buy in used market. Now it’s not?

Not cool to make up a narrative and continue this circular conversations of conjecture.

 

[Twinz]

For us, ICE is more convinient for long road trips. EV is more convinient for daily life.

If EV's can get close to the average price of an ICE car, it's a no brainer as a second car in the garage.

In our case, it's the ICE car that's now the "second" car. My wife hasn't been to a gas station in over a year. The car has only been on a super charger twice in the past 12 months, but that was when we lent it to our daughter.

 

[Kenai]

last year we had they were too expensive to buy in used market. Now it’s not?

It is amusing watching the narrative change from "lol I won't buy an EV because even used ones are too expensive" to "lol I won't buy an EV because they've depreciated too much".

 

[b0rn2sk8]

It is amusing watching the narrative change from "lol I won't buy an EV because even used ones are too expensive" to "lol I won't buy an EV because they've depreciated too much".

Also the no warranty when all EVs come with a 7/8 year warranty on the battery and drive motor. Most are 8 years 100k-120k warranties.

For us, ICE is more convinient for long road trips. EV is more convinient for daily life.

If EV's can get close to the average price of an ICE car, it's a no brainer as a second car in the garage.

In our case, it's the ICE car that's now the "second" car. My wife hasn't been to a gas station in over a year. The car has only been on a super charger twice in the past 12 months, but that was when we lent it to our daughter.

It’s funny how you should mention that as it’s pretty typical of people who buy EVs.

Many people in 2 car households bought an EV and kept their ICE to do roads trips. They soon realise the ICE hasn’t moved in a couple of weeks and that they just don’t use it any more, even on longer journeys.

Eventually once the second car comes up for replacement, they get a second BEV.

 

[rypt]

Rypt. Sounds more like luck than judgement to me and 30mins break on a trip like that? Good to rest. It’s fringe anyway, barely “real world”

Driving long distance in a vehicle made for long distance travel is not "fringe".

Public transport is supposed to be used for your short commute.
Cars are supposed to be for longer distance personal transport.

 

[rypt]

yep and it should be imo. (IF the government is serious about reducing our CO2 footprint) - its only newish ICE cars tho.

If EV is the superior technology, it should not need Gov. to subsidise it while artificially inflating cost of ICE.

Gov. should simply stick to investment in infrastructure, without trying to tax ICE and give tax breaks to EV vehicles.


I'm a bit young... but I don't think Horse+Carriage was taxed l, while Cars were given a tax break last time we went through a transition like this.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Driving long distance in a vehicle made for long distance travel is not "fringe".

Public transport is supposed to be used for your short commute.
Cars are supposed to be for longer distance personal transport.

I know, I took my IPACE to Venice. I didn’t moan about stopping at the wrong services and effecting a trip by 30mins.. though.

Easy fix of course for your example would be to charge only 10 mins to get to that next stop. Driving to Romania is fringe for UK population. Sorry to make you aware of this fact.

 

[m4rmite]

If EV is the superior technology, it should not need Gov. to subsidise it while artificially inflating cost of ICE.

Gov. should simply stick to investment in infrastructure, without trying to tax ICE and give tax breaks to EV vehicles.


I'm a bit young... but I don't think Horse+Carriage was taxed l, while Cars were given a tax break last time we went through a transition like this.

http://www.regencyresearcher.com/pages/tax.html
Looks like they did

 

[bigmike20vt]

If EV is the superior technology, it should not need Gov. to subsidise it while artificially inflating cost of ICE.

Gov. should simply stick to investment in infrastructure, without trying to tax ICE and give tax breaks to EV vehicles.


I'm a bit young... but I don't think Horse+Carriage was taxed l, while Cars were given a tax break last time we went through a transition like this.

i agree infrastructure needs investment, ideally with help from government tho that needs to be shown to actually go into the infrastucture and not creamed off in profits or peed up the wall.

as for government subisiding my EV, other than a few years road tax which ends in 2025 what other tax breaks do i get? once new EVs hit cost parity with ICE counterparts then tax breaks wont be needed and indeed that is likely why they are stopping.... initially however they did need help because they used to cost so much more and they DID used to have to include compromises (ie paying over £30k for a nissan leaf with a winter range of 65 miles when there are barely any chargepoints.... THAT is a compromise imo - tho at least charging was free back then)

retrospectively hitting EVs however is pretty pants imo... like i said earlier they didnt do that with our diesel so why do that with my EV?.

 

[rypt]

once new EVs hit cost parity with ICE counterparts then tax breaks wont be needed and indeed that is likely why they are stopping.... initially however they did need help because they used to cost so much more and they DID used to have to include compromises

Sure - then subsidise the manufacture of EVs by subsidising the creation of factories in UK. Give manufacturers tax breaks for every EV built in a UK factory.
Don't get involved in the actual car sale subsidy.


That's how you invest in a technology as a government. You do it by helping the entire economy grow.

 

[OllyM]

That is all well and good if you want to stop all the time but you are adding hours onto your journey time. Completely different roads to the states but I do 1200 across Europe in the summer to my mothers. Two split drivers basically non stop. Fill up with fuel once in Germany and that's it. I have two weeks off so don't want to waste my holiday time. We leave UK at night and arrive at our destination the next evening.

It didn't add hours to the trip at all, I basically did the trip in the time Google Maps projected!

On the second trip I left at 7.30am and the first stop wasn't until 11.40am - if the car wasn't ready to stop I certainly was! Most chargers are right by highway exits or even in service plazas which means you lose very little time getting on and off.

 

[rypt]

Driving to Romania is fringe for UK population. Sorry to make you aware of this fact.

Just to be clear.... I didn't drive to Romania, I drove a hire car while in Romania.

In any case - that isn't the point, the point is that I explained how ICE as a technology is more convenient.

 

[Nasher]

Sure - then subsidise the manufacture of EVs by subsidising the creation of factories in UK. Give manufacturers tax breaks for every EV built in a UK factory.
Don't get involved in the actual car sale subsidy.


That's how you invest in a technology as a government. You do it by helping the entire economy grow.

They already do that. Also throw cash at companies willing to build battery plants on acres of countryside.

 

[rypt]

They already do that. Also throw cash at companies willing to build battery plants on acres of countryside.

They do it - badly, and not to the same scale as US (or even EU).

How many EV car or EV battery factories have been built in UK?


We also continued to throw cash at the consumer market too - instead of purely sticking to the production side of things.

 

[Nasher]

They do it - badly, and not to the same scale as US (or even EU).

How many EV car or EV battery factories have been built in UK?


We also continued to throw cash at the consumer market too - instead of purely sticking to the production side of things.

I don't think any have been successful yet

The US has space for these things. We dont.