ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.
- Thread starter RoboCod
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He said 'every Asian lad' in his school. If he said a few maybe I'd believe him. But 'every Asian lad' having a 'picture of Bin Laden in their yearbook'? Not even the Daily Mail would come out with such grandiose and ridiculous accusations.
Muslim communities in this country, especially ones of conservative backgrounds, have deep rooted issues and problems they need to address. It's unhelpful for everyone when you spout unmitigated nonsense rather than focusing on the facts and the real issues.
Soldato
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It isn't necessarily just the Conservative types either. Looking at those British individuals that fled to Syria to fight. Yes they all had some link to being Muslim, but really the evidence doesn't indicate that they were 'triggered' or that being a Muslim was the reason for their actions. In fact, neither of them were devout Muslim, that's a total misconception. The perception that an individual is scouted and radicalised is pretty much unfounded also.
What those young men all had in common instead was a stark disassociation from society. All people are vulnerable to falling foul of that, you don't have to be identifying as Muslim. You can pretty much lump our chav culture in there, our poor and uneducated types and those who have severe drug addiction. Hell, even young white lads who fall victim to feeling emasculated through societal pressures and end up becoming reclusive virgins addicted to pokemon can be classed as socially disassociated.
Anyone who feels let down by society will easily embrace something that empowers them and makes them feel part of something bigger. Unfortunately the lure of ISIL and extremism was enticing for some of these guys. What they all had in common wasn't Conservative ideals, they were all quite usual in background and upbringing. However, they all lacked decent education and/or jobs and they were left to feel outcast from society....
It's the main reason why I sneer at anyone preaching ignorant wide sweeping guff. Those people are as much a cause for the problems we have as the Islamic extremists are. They compound the issues.
Man of Honour
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Say what you like but what he was saying was common knowledge concerning Longton High School.
I live 2 miles from the school and in the other direction I worked 2 miles from the school. I worked with many people who had kids at the school and also friends with kids at the school.
My daughters also had friends at that school and it was common knowledge that all the Muslim lads were carrying pictures of Bin Laden around.
We also had daily stories of racist encounters and many films were spread around of fighting at the school.
Now looking at it from an adult perspective, lads will be lads and from my point of view many of these Muslim lads probably didn't realise the significance of what they were doing. I worked with 3 Muslim brothers who said they would be horrified if their sons were carrying such stuff around and their kids went to that school.
However, from Raohns point of view as a schoolboy he saw it completely different. I believe him 100% when he said the Muslim lads were carrying pictures and he was more than likely scared by it.
But another however, here in Stoke we don't really have a racist problem. It is very rare we hear of racist attacks and everybody uses Asian taxis to get around and Asian takeaways to eat from. It's true that kids were being kids but the adults have it under control and those who are racist don't use their fists and mainly keep it to their friends.
Soldato
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I went to upper school in Bradford during and after 9/11 in a school with at least 30% Muslim population and have never seen anyone with photos of bin laden in their year books or anywhere else for a matter of fact.
A) because kids at that age aren't particular religious and were more interested in smoking fags and hooking up with members of the opposite sex. In fact out of a few hundred I can count them on one hand who you would call religious.
B) You would probably get called gay for carrying around pictures of another man.
Now if the poster had said a few it would seem plausible. But all, I think its safe to say perhaps the poster is telling porkies. In my entire life I have only seen one person who celebrated bin laden, a former school friend who reffered to him as Sheikh Bin Laden, inserting a title of respect to him and justifying his actions. Other than that have seen arguments for and against and as a course of discussion rather than celebratory regarding justification for 9/11 including US foreign policy prior to it but that's about it.
This wouldn't be the first time on OCUK where posters invent situations and provide them as anecdotal evidence. For example there was a poster (still assume active) who would literally in every situation, to back up his argument, inserted himself into a fabricated scenario and used that as ancidotal evidence.
Just off the top of my head some such cases included:-
Claim: Most or all Muslims behind non Muslims backs were plotting and scheming evil Muslims things and everything we see was just a front.
Evidence: He was a former Muslim and infiltrated them and heard all this scheming first hand and escaped the cult.
Claim: Something about Muslim women being evil or something cant remember in full.
Evidence: He was also married to a Muslim woman and seen this first hand
Claim: Something about rape and how it's accepted by Muslims
Evidence: His best friend was raped by a very high up Mufti who was then not reprimanded rather elevated by the community and he seen it first hand.
And there were more, either this guy was the most unlocky SOB and every time he was around a Muslim it turned into a scene out of Final destination or perhaps he was just making it all up as he had no other accepted evidence.
A) because kids at that age aren't particular religious and were more interested in smoking fags and hooking up with members of the opposite sex. In fact out of a few hundred I can count them on one hand who you would call religious.
B) You would probably get called gay for carrying around pictures of another man.
Now if the poster had said a few it would seem plausible. But all, I think its safe to say perhaps the poster is telling porkies. In my entire life I have only seen one person who celebrated bin laden, a former school friend who reffered to him as Sheikh Bin Laden, inserting a title of respect to him and justifying his actions. Other than that have seen arguments for and against and as a course of discussion rather than celebratory regarding justification for 9/11 including US foreign policy prior to it but that's about it.
This wouldn't be the first time on OCUK where posters invent situations and provide them as anecdotal evidence. For example there was a poster (still assume active) who would literally in every situation, to back up his argument, inserted himself into a fabricated scenario and used that as ancidotal evidence.
Just off the top of my head some such cases included:-
Claim: Most or all Muslims behind non Muslims backs were plotting and scheming evil Muslims things and everything we see was just a front.
Evidence: He was a former Muslim and infiltrated them and heard all this scheming first hand and escaped the cult.
Claim: Something about Muslim women being evil or something cant remember in full.
Evidence: He was also married to a Muslim woman and seen this first hand
Claim: Something about rape and how it's accepted by Muslims
Evidence: His best friend was raped by a very high up Mufti who was then not reprimanded rather elevated by the community and he seen it first hand.
And there were more, either this guy was the most unlocky SOB and every time he was around a Muslim it turned into a scene out of Final destination or perhaps he was just making it all up as he had no other accepted evidence.
SexyGreyFox [Deceased];29812688 said:
I'm not disputing any of the above. You're further ratifying my point. A particular high school in one particular location had a particular problem. It's looking more and more like an isolated and local problem over anything. It sounds like a gang of kids being dicks at the time (we all jumped on the provocative band Wagon of something or other when we were jumped up youths). So the actions of these kids at Longton high school, should we let that shape our worldly view of all the millions of Muslims in the world today? Because that's what is happening here. "There were scenes of celebration!".... Well ****! News flash, kids can be dicks!
Lol. I like the conclusions of that post.
The trouble is adults can be too. Like I said in the last terrorist thread, i was in north Africa on the eleventh of September 2001 and there were definitely people celebrating then. For balance I'll again point out as well that there were also many who I knew to be practicing muslims who were utterly horrified. That included one of the restaurant staff and a bar maid who were sat next to me.
The trouble is adults can be too. Like I said in the last terrorist thread, i was in north Africa on the eleventh of September 2001 and there were definitely people celebrating then. For balance I'll again point out as well that there were also many who I knew to be practicing muslims who were utterly horrified. That included one of the restaurant staff and a bar maid who were sat next to me.
Now I don't know the specifics of the area that he is going on about but I do know a few things. Firstly, I've never met any Muslim who had any dodgy beliefs at all about such things whilst in this country, however, I guess they wouldn't say that to me in all fairness. Next, I do though know there are schools not too far away where they are taught to be quite radicalised and extreme in their viewpoints and this has been shown to be the case. Lastly, would it not make sense that because the default positions for these lads would be to care more about football than religion that if they were to be found it would most likely be in very isolated but concentrated pockets because of something that is directly happening there.
Just saying you could both well be true rather than calling people liars etc.
I thought they had been cases of engineers and doctors going out to Syria too? Not really sure you could call that lacking decent education.
Soldato
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It would have to be the mother of all concentrated pockets to an unbelievable degree. I think the poster mentioned the school was in stoke on Trent which at the time had a 3.2% Muslim population which probably would be reflected in the school demographics. The claim is ALL the Muslim boys around 20, ALL had photos of bin laden carried around like a shrine and all the girls were to paying homage with speeches (every single one). It just doesn't make any logical sense, and doesn't paint a picture of reality in a school where Muslims would have made up a tiny minority where mixing would be unavoidable. If it was a religious school or even one dominated by one it would still be highly improbable.
Coming from a school at the time in what had a much larger proportion of Muslims in a city with a much higher majority of Muslims and being a Muslim all logic suggests I would in fact see more of this but that isn't the case as I have mentioned before. He also paints a picture of civil war in the play ground which again doesn't really make sense with the demographics at the time and average school sizes.
The above and a brief look at the posters history, his changing position and my own experience of anecdotal evidence on overclockers leads me to this position.
I guess if you had a few bad eggs who were ring leaders it wouldn't take too much for the other lads to follow the crowd. Just trying to be diplomatic that's all. Who knows?!? We all have to base our judgements on the strength of evidence, or lack of it, and our personal opinions of the veracity of their arguments.
Soldato
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From hearing of peoples accounts of why they got involved the running theme is they went out there genuinely to help as doctors / engineers. After seeing the destruction and the people in need many felt they like they would betraying the people by leaving. One case by a doctor who was giving a lecture at my sisters university (or was it a police camp she also does work for?) who got involved in it all said something along the lines of "when I seen that little girl stare at me in desperation I just couldn't leave her" once he decided to stay he got dragged deeper in and more isolated. after a few weeks months he was approached by some moroccon dudes who were anti assad at the time who he stayed with. Getting pulled in deeper and in different directions along the way.
The gist of many first hand accounts is many of these doctors / educated people go in with the best of intentions.
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That is probably an incorrect assumption. Whilst Stoke on Trent at the time may have had a 3.2% Muslim population they were not (and indeed are still not) spread out evenly across the town. They are concentrated in certain areas. This coupled with the fact that parents do talk and communities will send children to schools used to dealing with them would probably have seen skewed numbers, well above the local population figures, in one or two schools.
The same happens in the city I am in currently, with one school having most of the Polish students in the area.
As to the rest of the anecdote, I have absolutely no idea as I don't (and never want to) live in Stoke.
Soldato
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True and that would be likely but the poster does mention all and the number was 20.
I'm speaking from my own experience of the case studies we've worked on. My statement really should have been worded differently to say "they all lacked decent qualifications and/or jobs and/or were disassociated from the rest of our society"... The last part being most prominent because I'm not denying some of them have something about them but for us to vilify and target large groups of society and lump them all together based on our own prejudices we are simply adding to that growing number of disassociated individuals.
I guess if you had a few bad eggs who were ring leaders it wouldn't take too much for the other lads to follow the crowd. Just trying to be diplomatic that's all. Who knows?!? We all have to base our judgements on the strength of evidence, or lack of it, and our personal opinions of the veracity of their arguments.
Pretty much my view on things. Kids in gangs, aspiring to impress the bigger kids. If we identify this early then the route cause of a person's demise is easily captured and prevented from manifesting, which we usually do. Most of the "naughty boys" I knew at school have grown up to be normal functioning adults.
However, to carry a generalised view of all people into my adult life, based solely on the actions of school children, would be a fail on my part.