ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

gettothechopper · 19 Oct 2016 at 12:22

The Running Man said:
Well who are the iraq army and pershmerga going to arty in Mosul? Do you think they can pin point 3000 isis members amongst 1 million + people. They are expecting mass civilian destruction and refugees possibly a millions

"Mosul isn't having the same criticism because it hasn't really started yet"

Another thing that might make a difference, Aleppo is surrounded, with nowhere to run for ISIS or Civilians
Mosul still has the west free as a route out, maybe ISIS will run? would spare a great deal of the city if they did (and make nice targets for our airstrikes in the open desert

)

Rroff · 19 Oct 2016 at 12:43

gettothechopper said:
"Mosul isn't having the same criticism because it hasn't really started yet"

Another thing that might make a difference, Aleppo is surrounded, with nowhere to run for ISIS or Civilians
Mosul still has the west free as a route out, maybe ISIS will run? would spare a great deal of the city if they did (and make nice targets for our airstrikes in the open desert )

That has largely been their tactics so far - once an actual army is advancing on them - IED the place to **** leave a few snipers and suicide bombers and the rest spread into the desert in their toyota hiluxs sometimes with civilians as a shield.

Mr Jack · 19 Oct 2016 at 12:49

gettothechopper said:
Another thing that might make a difference, Aleppo is surrounded, with nowhere to run for ISIS or Civilians
Mosul still has the west free as a route out, maybe ISIS will run? would spare a great deal of the city if they did (and make nice targets for our airstrikes in the open desert )

Aleppo is a civil war between a brutal tyrant willing to use chemical weapons and barrel bombs on his own people, a diverse band of rebel warlords who engage in various levels of brutality and atrocity themselves, an a medieval wannabe-caliphate that represents the worst of theocratic government layered onto a terrorist frame. No intervention in Aleppo carries any kind of likelyhood of making things better.

Mosul, on the other hand, is a straight-up fight between an insurgency between aforemention medieval wannabe-caliphate and a democratically elected government - albeit a pretty flawed one - which has some commitment to the rule of law and is, moreover, a stated ally of ours.

The war against ISIS in Iraq has clear justification, clear aims, a clear end-state, and clear allies. None of this is the case in Syria.

Innocent people will die in Mosul, there is no doubt of this, but the alternative is to allow ISIS to strengthen its reign of terror and hold on the country.

Rroff · 19 Oct 2016 at 12:53

Mr Jack said:
Mosul, on the other hand, is a straight-up fight between an insurgency between aforemention medieval wannabe-caliphate and a democratically elected government - albeit a pretty flawed one - which has some commitment to the rule of law and is, moreover, a stated ally of ours.

There is still some considerable complications with shia and sunni factions, etc. but overall a far less complex situation as things stand than Syria.

LongBridge · 19 Oct 2016 at 12:54

I think the current war to defeat ISIS in Iraq will be over very soon as their is a huge majority of the Iraqi population who are totally against them. It might be a lot harder to defeat them in Syria though as there is a multi-sided civil war going on there and that is going to make it a lot harder to single out and fight ISIS. Their main stronghold in Syria is Raqqa a city already surrounded by an ongoing war.

gettothechopper · 19 Oct 2016 at 13:00

Rroff said:
There is still some considerable complications with shia and sunni factions, etc. but overall a far less complex situation as things stand than Syria.

Looks like some sense is being used, to not take Mosul with Shia militias (and keep them outside the city)

Its after that will be the difficult part, hopefully they will do a better job than Maliki at being inclusive, the Kurds are going to want (and deserve) more autonomy after all this though.

Washout · 19 Oct 2016 at 15:26

gettothechopper said:
Looks like some sense is being used, to not take Mosul with Shia militias (and keep them outside the city)

Its after that will be the difficult part, hopefully they will do a better job than Maliki at being inclusive, the Kurds are going to want (and deserve) more autonomy after all this though.

It's when the dust settle and the Kurds want their due (I agree, they've earnt it) that the problems with Turkey will really kick off.

Mr Jack · 19 Oct 2016 at 16:14

Rroff said:
There is still some considerable complications with shia and sunni factions, etc. but overall a far less complex situation as things stand than Syria.

Yeah, Iraq has issues. It's not quite on the level of chaos and disaster in Syria. I don't agree with the Russian position in Syria but it is at least coherent, our involvement and that of the Western allies is an incoherent mess.

ThestigGT999 · 20 Oct 2016 at 12:18

Terrorists shell humanitarian corridor with mortars as civilians near Aleppo try to flee – reports

looks like they don't want to lose their human shield

StriderX · 20 Oct 2016 at 12:42

LongBridge said:
I think the current war to defeat ISIS in Iraq will be over very soon as their is a huge majority of the Iraqi population who are totally against them. It might be a lot harder to defeat them in Syria though as there is a multi-sided civil war going on there and that is going to make it a lot harder to single out and fight ISIS. Their main stronghold in Syria is Raqqa a city already surrounded by an ongoing war.

No need to single them out, just kill them all, tired of this crappy notion that rebellion should be acceptable even in the middle-east.

LongBridge · 20 Oct 2016 at 12:47

I think that the war to defeat ISIS in Mosul will be over in another two weeks. Despite all their threats ISIS are not a very powerful fighting force. If they are relying on suicide bombers then it shows they are very week. Normally I would be against further war in Iraq but ISIS really do need to be defeated and defeated fast.

StriderX · 20 Oct 2016 at 12:48

LongBridge said:
I think that the war to defeat ISIS in Mosul will be over in another two weeks. Despite all their threats ISIS are not a very powerful fighting force. If they are relying on suicide bombers then it shows they are very week. Normally I would be against further war in Iraq but ISIS really do need to be defeated and defeated fast.

Don't worry, Turkey will invade "kurdistan" next and we'll back to deal with it, only diplomatically as Turkey is our greatest ally of all time, and its ass needs to be kissed.

Rroff · 20 Oct 2016 at 12:52

LongBridge said:
I think that the war to defeat ISIS in Mosul will be over in another two weeks. Despite all their threats ISIS are not a very powerful fighting force. If they are relying on suicide bombers then it shows they are very week. Normally I would be against further war in Iraq but ISIS really do need to be defeated and defeated fast.

ISIS almost never engages in a hard confrontation - if they did it would have been easy to wipe them out months ago. They seem to have been sidelined lately by their backers in favour of Jabhat.

Seanspeed · 20 Oct 2016 at 13:41

StriderX said:
No need to single them out, just kill them all, tired of this crappy notion that rebellion should be acceptable even in the middle-east.

So you think that the people who live in these countries should just shut up and accept whatever horrible, repressive, authoritarian regime gets put in place?

What a demonstration of somebody who completely takes for granted living in a stable, democratic, 1st world country.

RaohNS · 20 Oct 2016 at 18:46

Seanspeed said:
So you think that the people who live in these countries should just shut up and accept whatever horrible, repressive, authoritarian regime gets put in place?

What a demonstration of somebody who completely takes for granted living in a stable, democratic, 1st world country.

I see where you are coming from but by our token : What democratic choices are they allowed to make? There's a right for them and a right for US (double meaning)

nick.lidgett · 20 Oct 2016 at 18:53

I honestly don't know how the normal, everyday people in Syria and Iraq can live between ISIS, UK, NATO, UN, USA, Russians and whoever else is blowing the towns and cities to pieces.

What really makes my blood boil is the medias complete lack of real, meaningful humanitarian reports.

Skunkworks · 20 Oct 2016 at 18:59

The ME has been a war-torn dump for decades. Eventually some brutal dictator manages to impose some semblance of order, but then the west removes him and resets everything.

Seanspeed · 20 Oct 2016 at 22:48

RaohNS said:
I see where you are coming from but by our token : What democratic choices are they allowed to make? There's a right for them and a right for US (double meaning)

There's a reason the US has the 2nd amendment right to bear arms in the Constitution. It was made very specifically to enable the population to forcefully remove a government which has turned on its own people, the people they are sworn to represent. Thankfully in the US, there is no real threat of needing to do this, but were it like Syria, it would provide a damn good excuse to make use of that 2nd amendment and fight back. Whether or not Syria has a similar right to bear arms, I dont know, but I would still say it is their duty to fight back against a government that is trying to kill and oppress its own people. The Arab Spring was probably a very good thing, letting the people know they ultimately should be the ones with the power, though that will probably only be seen in the long run. Til then, it will be bloody and messy. A sad state of affairs, but saying, "Just kill them all" seems to be such a small-minded and unsympathetic attitude to take towards a situation where these people are simply trying to fight to have freedom and to exist without fear in their own country in so many cases.

RaohNS · 20 Oct 2016 at 23:27

But the people voted him in.

The west hates Assad and has done since at least 09/10.

I understand what you are saying but large portions of Syria did very well (as per Sven256 on I believe post #2719 from memory) but large parts are very poor. It comes to something when Gaddafi made a prediction in 2008 that has unfolded exactly so far as he said it would with the very countries he said would causing it now doing it.

There is poverty everywhere. That is a situation ripe for trouble.

ThestigGT999 · 20 Oct 2016 at 23:59

Syrian rebels preventing evacuation of Aleppo