ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

Washout said:
As you say, a civil war is messy. They always are. But he could quite easily have left the country. It wasn't a binary choice.
It's also getting to be a bit of a tired cliché blaming all the ills of the world on the US and the CIA. They couldn't even organise a break in to an iphone so you give them too much credit. Libya for instance, they had ZERO interest in. That was a British/French enterprise that they only (and reluctantly) came in on at the end.
If there wasn't a groundswell of support for getting him out the movement would have died on it's feet at the beginning. People talking about the elections being fair and a true representation of the situation on the ground... well, that's such an absurd notion it's not worth arguing against.

Of course the blood thirsty Jihadis cannot be absolved, not for one second saying they should but as soon as he ordered the army to fire on his own people he kicked off the circle of violence that got the country to where it is now.
Some on here, along with the Russians might be comfortable staying in bed with the man that allowed his country and people to rip itself apart but I'm not! Neither are most democratic nations around the world.
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The problem is it was a binary choice - he either stayed and fought, or he capitulated and was executed. There may have been a third way - go to Russia and hope they would shelter him, but for someone who is still in power moving from a position of your life being in your hands to your life being in the hands of a foreign power, I can see why he chose to stay.

Let's be clear here (as I wrote in the edit) I'm not arguing the US created the Arab spring, rather they helped it happen. Perhaps unintentionally and with good intentions, but they certainly had a hand in it. For example:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html

I'm not one of these people saying the US is the root of all evil, and again - look for quotes of me discussing Libya if you'd like, I've argued the point you're making - that the US were drawn in by the UK and France.

Just because sometimes I agree with the sentiment of some of the more "interesting" people on here doesn't mean I follow the same logic. :p

The reality is though, much like Libya we don't really know how big that groundswell was/is. Dissent was in part on religious and ethnic/family background - the leaders of our country are not from our clan/religions sect, as much as they may have been related to the actual "evils" and corruption of government. It's why it's always difficult to take sides in a civil war, they are far more complex than "evil dictator" fighting "noble rebels".

Edit: to further add to the initial point about compromises - it also didn't help that the west wouldn't allow one of Assads main allies to the table in the peace talks (Iran). We had half a dozen western powers and basically Russia on Assads side, because we refused other allies space.

And interestingly it's still going on. One of the reasons the first ceasefire to evacuate Aleppo failed was because the rebels wouldn't allow a similar ceasefire and evacuation of government towns surrounded by rebels. The rebels finally agree to that and the second ceasefire and evacuation seems to be holding. It just isn't as one sided as some on this forum like to imply.
 
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StriderX said:
Can someone who disagrees with Assad's position, please explain their position on Libya?

As our solution would have been very similar if we went in.
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There is a big difference there that Gaddafi was a dictator who assumed power in a coup. Assad is a democratically elected leader who originally inherited his position before instigating reforms (to bring about free elections).

But I see what you mean, if we had gone in in 2013 as Cameron wanted then the result and aftermath would have been identical to Libya.
 
ubersonic said:
No, leaders of countries rarely are, just that he isn't a dictator/manic as some western media outlets attempt to portray him.



I doubt he has personally killed anyone, if you think he is personally responsible for any civilians killed as collateral damage during the war against the extremists then you should probably look into every war that has ever happened. I am not saying that civilian losses are good, but holding leaders responsible for them when they didn't even start the conflict is silly.



Facist dictators, in general, are not elected.



What? that I don't blindly believe any random nonsense I read in the tabloids?
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hitler never personally killed anyone either. you could use your sick theory to defend him also.
 
ubersonic said:
Why the hell would he do that? O.o

At no point in this entire thing (baring when it looked like the west was going to intervene) was it even remotely likely the rebels were going to win. Hell in 4 years they only managed to take 10-20% of Aleppo and the media considers that their "stronghold".

Why should he leave when the vast majority of Syrians are in favour of him and his party?

Do you want Syria to be overrun by extremists who want to turn it into an Islamic country, install sharia law, revoke women's rights and persecute the Christians/Jews?
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Because it could have avoided years of bloody civil war that produced the bloody Jihadis. They are a result of the war, not the instigators. The instigators were normal citizens tired of living under a dictatorship.

And only 10%- 20% of Aleppo?! You make it sound like a few lads holed up in a poxy corner of the country rather than more or less 50% being lost. Aleppo was the center of commerce for Syria let's not forget. Hardly a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalists.
 
jagga1968 said:
hitler never personally killed anyone either. you could use your sick theory to defend him also.
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How very derivative at this point, Hitler wanted to kill all of the Jews as a matter of policy.

Assad doesnt have a policy of killing anything other than a rebellion of his rule, which is justified regardless of his evils, if there was a rebellion in Saudi Arabia, there would be a very different tone in the West. Syria was undergoing reform and a bunch of opportunists thought they could have the country to themselves as with most cultures in that area, it's simply what they do, it's never about equal treatment for all, its my tribe/religious belief is best and **** everyone who thinks differently.

Theres a good reason why Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen is desperately pathetic.
 
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ubersonic said:
Do you want Syria to be overrun by extremists who want to turn it into an Islamic country, install sharia law,
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syria is a muslim country and has been for over 1400 years. its not up to you to decide what the constitution of syria should be. that is for syrians to decide and none of your business.

those people who try to justify what assad has done to his fellow civilians you are just as evil as the animal you try to defend.

Assad would be dead long ago if it was not for outside interference.
 
Washout said:
Because it could have avoided years of bloody civil war that produced the bloody Jihadis. They are a result of the war, not the instigators. The instigators were normal citizens tired of living under a dictatorship.

And only 10%- 20% of Aleppo?! You make it sound like a few lads holed up in a poxy corner of the country rather than more or less 50% being lost. Aleppo was the center of commerce for Syria let's not forget. Hardly a hotbed for Islamic fundamentalists.
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At best the rebels held a third of it at the greatest extent. And it was unlikely to just be locals fighting for Aleppo. It is a major strategic point and as such a major target of control - meaning the control of it has little to do with which side the locals actually support. I believe most of the citizens living in the rebel held part also left a long time ago. The people left are/were either supporters or most likely people with nowhere else to go and/or wanting to look after their livelihoods and worldly belongings.

That's not to say the people that left were loyal to the government and anti rebel though.
 
Amp34 said:
Does he? Any evidence for this?
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at least 250,000 dead by western accounts the real figure is many times that.

if you understood arabic i could show you loads of evidence.

the allawites and shia and hezbollah are worse than nazis.

plenty of evidence on youtube, rape and torturing men women and children to death just because they are sunnis.
 
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jagga1968 said:
at least 250,000 dead by western accounts the real figure is many times that.

if you understood arabic i could show you loads of evidence.

the allawites and shia are worse than nazis.

plenty of evidence on youtube, rape and torturing men women and children to death just because they are sunnis.
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So no then. You're taking deaths in a civil war as a genocidal aim?

I will grant you though that the Iranian Militia do seem to be slightly out of control, but then that's militia for you.

I assume you're a Sunni?
 
jagga1968 said:
at least 250,000 dead by western accounts the real figure is many times that.

if you understood arabic i could show you loads of evidence.

the allawites and shia and hezbollah are worse than nazis.

plenty of evidence on youtube, rape and torturing men women and children to death just because they are sunnis.
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and ISIS who happily do all of the above - at the same time because you are not isis , or you are in fact isis but had a smoke in public....

the schism in islam happened within 10 years of the death of Muhammad and the first large scale war between ideologies was around 24 years after Muhammad death *Battle of the Camel*
 
Washout said:
And only 10%- 20% of Aleppo?! You make it sound like a few lads holed up in a poxy corner of the country rather than more or less 50% being lost.
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At no point was 50% ever close to being lost, when the media/etc referred to the "rebel half" what they meant was the area the rebels controlled, they said half to make it sound bigger than it was (or sometimes if they thought they could get away with it they just referred to the city itself as if it was controlled mostly by rebels).

To put it in perspective, depending on the reports you read the rebel area had around 250-500k civilians trapped in it. The population of Aleppo was ~2.5 million.


jagga1968 said:
syria is a muslim country
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No it's a secular country, hence the freedom of religion and all the Jews/Christians running around. It's ISIS and the rebels who want to make it an Islamic country and revoke the freedom of religion, women's rights, etc.

This is why despite Assad being no angel most people in Syria support him against the rebels/ISIS (hence him winning re-election in 2014 and his party's coalition winning reelection in 2012 and 2016) as his side is the best available choice by a large margin.
 
Harlequin said:
since I am reading History with theology for my degree - want to have a conversation about it?
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this is not the place for a religous debate.

ubersonic said:
No it's a secular country, hence the freedom of religion and all the Jews/Christians running around.
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plenty of jews and Christians were running around syria when it was an islamic state and during that time everyone had freedom of religion.
 
jagga1968 said:
this is not the place for a religous debate.
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ubersonic has extreme views which are easily overturned by a simple google search. Don't let him get away with muddying the waters he's not worth the effort. You can not reason with unreasonable people like him, all you can do is show him the facts and then ridicule him as he stumbles in your footsteps.
 
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very few jews were `running around `Syria , since the great escape in 1992 , there were less than 200 left - right now? its 9.

but - uber IS correct ; freedom of religion is a part of their constitution. ISIS really does not that and neither does the horrific Wahhabism of Saudi arabia.
 
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